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RE: California rape case begins - 6/6/2013 1:16:00 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

This mirrors the Ohio rape charge with people watching and taking photos.


It's this that baffles me the most. At first I thought, 'She was out of her head - it may have looked like she was into a multi-bonk' - but, apparently, she was being manhandled pretty brutally as well.

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: California rape case begins - 6/6/2013 1:29:10 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

MARTINEZ -- Almost three years after Manuel Ortega ripped a Richmond High School girl's clothes off, punched and kicked her in the head, sexually assaulted her and encouraged others to do the same outside a homecoming dance, the 22-year-old apologized Friday as he was sentenced to 32 years in prison.


Another report...

quote:

"The series of events that occurred over the next 2½ hours got more severe and more vicious to where she was ultimately gang raped and beaten, and her injuries were so severe that she had to be sent to the hospital in a helicopter," Gagan told KGO.


Blood alcohol level of .33.

This girl was severely messed up.


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: California rape case begins - 6/6/2013 2:35:49 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Gee, Parents dont teach moral values anymore, hell parents are afraid to discipline their kids today. Kid misbehaves, put em in time out. That is supposed to teach them a lesson?

Kids have learned alot from the court cases where clearly guilty defendants were declared innocent.

Now we are raising a generation of sociopaths and psychopaths.

and people wonder why the hell I own guns. Simple, it is illegal to plant mine fields around your property and allow large feline predators to roam your property to protect it.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: California rape case begins - 6/6/2013 3:25:55 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		This incident, for me, stinks of the 'pack mind'. For me, the single most important thing for a kid to know - for an *adult* to know - is that he or she must have the bollocks to stand against the group.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: California rape case begins - 6/6/2013 7:39:41 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

I hope this shit goes viral and starts a revival of personal responsibility and morality.


Like back in the days when people just stood by for lynchings, segregation and so forth?

No, what you need, is to teach respect, by which I don't mean fear.

quote:

Picture takers and gawkers should be rewarded with harsh sentences.


Not if they provide testimony and submit the pictures as evidence.

In fact, probably not at all, since it would be legislating against one of the dominant human traits: passivity in a social context.

quote:

That fucker that talked to her father should really get raked over the coals.


On what charges?

Being an immoral douchebag doesn't strike me as a valid crime.

quote:

It's a damn shame that this shit happens. Damn.


Agreed.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

P.S.: Again, it strikes me that a thread about a horrific crime contains a lot of examples of how such crimes happen.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: California rape case begins - 6/6/2013 7:44:30 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

This incident, for me, stinks of the 'pack mind'. For me, the single most important thing for a kid to know - for an *adult* to know - is that he or she must have the bollocks to stand against the group.


That's the definition of an adult in my book, Peon, but adults are rare. Furthermore, adults may object to the direction society as a whole is taking, or the direction the movers and shakers are taking, so it's not particularly hard to come up with some mechanisms that select against adulthood. Going by what people are saying on here, in this thread and others, the proposed solution to the problem is to select even harder against adulthood. Shrug. I don't see that paying off.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: California rape case begins - 6/6/2013 7:46:34 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I hope this shit goes viral and starts a revival of personal responsibility and morality.

Like back in the days when people just stood by for lynchings, segregation and so forth?
No, what you need, is to teach respect, by which I don't mean fear.


Yeah. That's it. WTF is the point of that questioning? Damn. Personal responsibility to do what is right, and morality to know what is right and wrong. Yes, respect is damn important, too, and I wish I would have included it.

quote:

quote:

Picture takers and gawkers should be rewarded with harsh sentences.

Not if they provide testimony and submit the pictures as evidence.
In fact, probably not at all, since it would be legislating against one of the dominant human traits: passivity in a social context.


Yep. No morality or responsibility. None of them called the cops (according to the story). They're fucked, afaic.

quote:

quote:

That fucker that talked to her father should really get raked over the coals.

On what charges?
Being an immoral douchebag doesn't strike me as a valid crime.


He was involved in the rape, and went so far as to tell the father how good she was. There have been cases where some sentences are more lenient because the criminal was remorseful. This should not be one of those cases.

quote:

quote:

It's a damn shame that this shit happens. Damn.

Agreed.
IWYW,
— Aswad.
P.S.: Again, it strikes me that a thread about a horrific crime contains a lot of examples of how such crimes happen.


Not sure what you're saying with that P.S., Aswad.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: California rape case begins - 6/7/2013 10:05:47 AM   
graceadieu


Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Picture takers and gawkers should be rewarded with harsh sentences.


Agreed. All the onlookers should be charged with accessory to the crime, and do some prison time.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: California rape case begins - 6/7/2013 11:44:22 AM   
muhly22222


Posts: 463
Joined: 3/25/2010
Status: offline
quote:

I have issues with the defense attorney's "beliefs" about how his client's dna ended up on a used condom found at the scene. But, its an attempt at a defense.


Don't judge a defense attorney by his arguments on behalf of a client. We sometimes have to do terrible things because we have an ethical duty to our clients. While the case here in Ohio was going on, I was talking about it with somebody from CM, and I said that if I was defending an accused rapist, and the facts were such that "blame the victim" was an argument that might get some play with the jury, I would do it...then I'd go home and cry about having done it. I'd probably write a letter to the victim apologizing after everything was done, too.

Why would two of the defendants have taken reduced sentences? Obviously, it lowers their exposure. They may have been asked to testify against the other defendants (because the eyewitness testimony from a participant could be invaluable to the prosecutor). And the victim agreed to the sentences.

quote:

I can't fathom how parole being available is justice.


You get into all the different possible definitions of justice, and the purpose of punishment. Is it merely to make the offender pay for his actions? Is there a goal of rehabilitating an offender? Making an example out of an offender to deter other potential offenders?

But if you recognize any value in rehabilitating an offender, you need to give them a reason to rehabilitate. They won't do it if they're just going to spend the rest of their lives in prison, anyway (and while 32 years isn't the rest of their lives, it's so long that they probably won't care about changing themselves until they're 25 years into it). Providing the chance for parole eligibility will give them a reason to rehabilitate, to seek out the help that they need to do that. Whether that be therapy, religion, philosophy...whatever works for them, but it gives them a reason to seek it out.

_____________________________

I have always been among those who believed that the greatest freedom of speech was the greatest safety, because if a man is a fool, the best thing to do is to encourage him to advertise the fact by speaking.
-Woodrow Wilson

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: California rape case begins - 6/7/2013 11:59:10 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Don't judge a defense attorney by his arguments on behalf of a client. We sometimes have to do terrible things because we have an ethical duty to our clients. While the case here in Ohio was going on, I was talking about it with somebody from CM, and I said that if I was defending an accused rapist, and the facts were such that "blame the victim" was an argument that might get some play with the jury, I would do it...then I'd go home and cry about having done it. I'd probably write a letter to the victim apologizing after everything was done, too.


I didnt judge them, I said I had issues with it. However, I also said they are entitled to a defense

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to muhly22222)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: California rape case begins - 6/7/2013 5:16:55 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		DS, as bad as I hate it, if we can shield the victim from more horror and she is cool with it, I'm OK with the deal allowing the people to testify for a reduced sentence.

We should never revictimize a victim. (was that a word?)

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: California rape case begins - 6/7/2013 7:31:29 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Would you turn on someone with that clause, knowing that if you go to trial and get a life sentence, you will be eligible for parole in 10 years.


I find it despicable that kids would engage in this behavior. I find it that reprehensible, that I can't fathom how parole being available is justice. I can't understand how justice can be served - which I'm certain we agree needs to happen - by reducing a sentence because someone has plead guilty, even if they have agreed to testify against the rest. How can it be that those kids can't be subpoenaed for their testimonies, deal or no deal?


I'm sure you have heard of the 5th Amendment? They can't be forced to incriminate themselves, and therefore, forced to testify. A plea deal offers the prosecution to be able to get more of the defendants guilty verdicts because those who made "deals" no longer need to worry about incriminating themselves.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: California rape case begins - 6/7/2013 7:36:58 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		There isn't a law that states one MUST stop a crime from being committed. However, there are laws about inciting crimes. Cheering and such would be considered such incitement and therefore, yes, they can be charged. They weren't "passive." They didn't participate in the rape, but they did participate in the act as a whole by cheering the others on.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: California rape case begins - 6/7/2013 10:47:52 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

And this is the result of parents insisting their children " do no wrong".


Society insists there is no right, no wrong.
Rather,that the only wrong is judging one thing better than another.
Family? One parent households must be equal to two-parent households.
Religion? Ho hum. One is as good- or as bad- as another.
Here legally? Illegally? Really. What's the difference?
You want it and don't have it? Not your fault. Take it.

I am just so thankful I didn't get that call, although it might be pretty interesting to see how long it would take them to make a charge stick.... I wonder how many I could get. My brief time as a cop taught me that mainly drunks and idiots get caught. If there are no witnesses, and you don't leave evidence....

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: California rape case begins - 6/7/2013 10:50:14 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

How can it be that those kids can't be subpoenaed for their testimonies, deal or no deal?


When the death penalty is off the table, and solitary confinement is unconstitutional.... what, exactly, are you going to do to them if they don't testify?

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: California rape case begins - 6/7/2013 10:55:40 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Family? One parent households must be equal to two-parent households.


I have seen some pretty fucked up individuals that came from two parent homes.. and some wonderful from a one parent home. One isnt necessarily better than the other for the absence of a parent.

Add in an abusive parent and its better there is only one.



_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: California rape case begins - 6/7/2013 10:59:06 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I really dont hold out much hope for this generation.


well you can take pride knowing that its your generation that bore and raised them to such high standards!

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: California rape case begins - 6/7/2013 11:00:58 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Naaaaa.... lol.... these are 17 year olds.

Im grandma to these kids.

Did you see this one?

http://likes.com/comedy/why-this-is-the-worst-teenager-on-instagram?pid=104528&utm_source=mylikes&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=ml&utm_term=25095118

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: California rape case begins - 6/7/2013 11:06:18 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		'Respect' as in 'respect for your betters' is part and parcel of lynchings, segregation, etc.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Like back in the days when people just stood by for lynchings, segregation and so forth?

No, what you need, is to teach respect, by which I don't mean fear.
<SNIP>
[P.S.: Again, it strikes me that a thread about a horrific crime contains a lot of examples of how such crimes happen.




These irony meters aren't cheap, you know.

_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: California rape case begins - 6/8/2013 12:01:56 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		As I said, the guys that committed the act are not humans, they are animals, and should be treated as such. I am sick and tired of hearing people scream about the rights of the criminal, and say jack shit about the rights of the victim.

As for the people who stood around and watched and did nothing, they should be arrested and charged as accessories. And in this case, a bill should be passed real fucking fast in California making the death penalty available for those that committed the crime and those that watched and did nothing.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 40
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