The Value of Birthright

The Value of Birthright (Full Version)

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RemoteUser -> The Value of Birthright (6/6/2013 4:07:00 PM)
Apologies if someone has asked this before: I haven't seen it through happenstance or the search function. Is it important to you whether the leader of your country (wherever you are) is a citizen of your country? This is not about "birthers", or whether you have a parent who is a citizen, but someone who wasn't born in your country and whose parents are not citizens, either. In case you're wondering why I'm asking such a bizarre question, it occurs to me that someone can know a country by being raised there from a young age, and that leaderships qualities do not rely on where your mom broke her water. So, why apply the caveat that someone must be born within, or related to a person, within a specific geographical area to best understand and govern the people who live there? I haven't decided firmly where I sit on this, although I lean towards wanting a good leader regardless of where they come from (and I would qualify that by saying I personally think they should intimately understand the land they are going to govern, to be effective). I'm interested in hearing other views, and the thoughts that drive them, on the topic.

tazzygirl -> RE: The Value of Birthright (6/6/2013 4:11:27 PM)
Personally, Im on the fence as well. I can see how it might not be. Someone comes from another country with a small child. That child can be just as fiercely loyal to this country as if they were born here. Someone can also come from another country and grow up keeping their loyalty through family to their "mother country".

epiphiny43 -> RE: The Value of Birthright (6/6/2013 4:20:03 PM)
The original provision probably was a republican (real republican, not our present delusionals carrying water for the international financial elite) reaction to the Royals of the time tending to give whole countries to relatives, with back up armies. Sort of proxy Birthright of Kings? Remember there was a strong movement to make G. Washington King of America? The Colonies were getting particular about home rule and were allergic to English and others with titles and wealth telling the poor colonists what to do? There was also a strong link to the 'father colony' that came to a head in the Civil War, where loyalty was more to the State/colony one came from than to the new national government. Few related well to those with no State loyalty? They had just finished a long Rebellion against off-shore government and probably were still touchy about knowing their officials through a lifetime? I doubt the provision is functional but for now it keeps the delusional occupied and from causing worse mischief elsewhere? The idea birth place rules patriotism is as laughable as saying party affiliation guarantees sanity or ethics. "Who knows what darkness lies in the hearts of men?" Other than by their acts?

Moonhead -> RE: The Value of Birthright (6/6/2013 4:23:37 PM)
Yeppers. You uppity colonials owe her maj a lot of tea tax...

tazzygirl -> RE: The Value of Birthright (6/6/2013 4:31:19 PM)
They sure do, huh.

DesideriScuri -> RE: The Value of Birthright (6/6/2013 4:33:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RemoteUser Apologies if someone has asked this before: I haven't seen it through happenstance or the search function. Is it important to you whether the leader of your country (wherever you are) is a citizen of your country? This is not about "birthers", or whether you have a parent who is a citizen, but someone who wasn't born in your country and whose parents are not citizens, either. In case you're wondering why I'm asking such a bizarre question, it occurs to me that someone can know a country by being raised there from a young age, and that leaderships qualities do not rely on where your mom broke her water. So, why apply the caveat that someone must be born within, or related to a person, within a specific geographical area to best understand and govern the people who live there? I haven't decided firmly where I sit on this, although I lean towards wanting a good leader regardless of where they come from (and I would qualify that by saying I personally think they should intimately understand the land they are going to govern, to be effective). I'm interested in hearing other views, and the thoughts that drive them, on the topic. The only reason I care, is because them's the rules. I wouldn't stand against an Amendment to drop that rule. I would, personally, think that there would need to be a rule that the majority of the person's life would have to have been spent in the US, maybe even make it 35 years (as that is the minimum age for a Citizen to be eligible to be the President), and those years would have had to have been the most recent years, too.

OsideGirl -> RE: The Value of Birthright (6/6/2013 4:33:44 PM)
It was originally done to protect the country from foreign influence and to prevent a member of European Royalty from becoming the leader of the country. Many of the people that wrote that clause, had seen England taken over by a foreign King. I think at this point, it's kind of moot. We're a melting pot of influences at this point.

jlf1961 -> RE: The Value of Birthright (6/6/2013 4:42:27 PM)
The only lawful leader of the US and the UK would be from the The House of Lancaster, or the House of York and a direct blood descendant of the House of Plantagenet. Unless of course you want to claim that the true royal family of Great Britain is the line of Pendragon. Now if you take the money influence on politics to determine the true leader of the US, it would have to be one of the Koch brothers.

dcnovice -> RE: The Value of Birthright (6/6/2013 4:48:09 PM)
quote: Someone can also come from another country and grow up keeping their loyalty through family to their "mother country". Christian Heurich, a German immigrant who became a wealthy DC brewer and landowner, used to say, "Germany is my mother, but America is my bride."

Politesub53 -> RE: The Value of Birthright (6/6/2013 4:48:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OsideGirl It was originally done to protect the country from foreign influence and to prevent a member of European Royalty from becoming the leader of the country. Many of the people that wrote that clause, had seen England taken over by a foreign King. I think at this point, it's kind of moot. We're a melting pot of influences at this point. But by that time the King was King in name only, Parliament held the real power. I think your founding fathers were more about having local control than being ruled from afar.

vincentML -> RE: The Value of Birthright (6/6/2013 4:51:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead Yeppers. You uppity colonials owe her maj a lot of tea tax... Actually, the lot were running rum and trading for slaves. They just pretended it was about tea. Weren't going to throw good rum into the harbor.

dcnovice -> RE: The Value of Birthright (6/6/2013 4:54:17 PM)
FR Historical gossip has it that one reason for the "natural born citizen" requirement was to block Alexander Hamilton from becoming President.

Politesub53 -> RE: The Value of Birthright (6/6/2013 5:04:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 The only lawful leader of the US and the UK would be from the The House of Lancaster, or the House of York and a direct blood descendant of the House of Plantagenet. Unless of course you want to claim that the true royal family of Great Britain is the line of Pendragon. Now if you take the money influence on politics to determine the true leader of the US, it would have to be one of the Koch brothers. Not so...... the Plantagenets were by no means the first Kings of a united England, that honour fell to the Saxon House of Wessex. George the I may have been German but he was a great grandson of James I. He gained the crown as the closest Protestant heir. He was also the first King but second ruler of Great Britain, the first was Queen Anne.

DomKen -> RE: The Value of Birthright (6/6/2013 5:15:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice FR Historical gossip has it that one reason for the "natural born citizen" requirement was to block Alexander Hamilton from becoming President. No idea where that rumor comes from but the Constitution allows anyone who was a citizen when the Constitution was adopted who was 35 or older and had lived in the colonies for at least 14 years to become President. Hamilton moved to the colonies in 1772 so by 1787, when the Constitution was written, he had been resident for 15 years. Almost like someone chose 14 years so as to make sure he was eligible.

JeffBC -> RE: The Value of Birthright (6/6/2013 5:19:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Personally, Im on the fence as well. I can see how it might not be. Someone comes from another country with a small child. That child can be just as fiercely loyal to this country as if they were born here. Someone can also come from another country and grow up keeping their loyalty through family to their "mother country". Wait a second... hold on here. Are we for even one moment speculating that because someone is born in the US they might be "fiercely loyal"??? I was born in the US and I sure as hell am not. The current raft of misfits in DC were born here. They most certainly are not. That being said, I want to be governed by a someone who meant well and was at least a moderately decent leader. I know right? But I can hope.

tazzygirl -> RE: The Value of Birthright (6/6/2013 5:21:40 PM)
Not at all. lol... recent events have shown that to be patently false. but that was the speculation back then. Having said that, as much as people are divided over him, Arnold was such a person. Even Albright wasnt US born. Texas appointed a Senator that was born in Canada. But people tend to view the Presidency as sacrosanct for being "US born".. and anyone in line for the position as well. If I remember correctly, if someone in direct line isnt US born, they are passed over (Thankfully that has never played out in our history)

DesideriScuri -> RE: The Value of Birthright (6/6/2013 5:49:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Not at all. lol... recent events have shown that to be patently false. but that was the speculation back then. Having said that, as much as people are divided over him, Arnold was such a person. Even Albright wasnt US born. Texas appointed a Senator that was born in Canada. But people tend to view the Presidency as sacrosanct for being "US born".. and anyone in line for the position as well. If I remember correctly, if someone in direct line isnt US born, they are passed over (Thankfully that has never played out in our history) Sancrosanct, or, as some might say, Constitutional. If a sitting President were to pass, the VP is next in line. If he/she is not eligible, the next in line is vetted.

tazzygirl -> RE: The Value of Birthright (6/6/2013 5:51:14 PM)
But why are we holding on to that same rule centuries later? How many of us are truly "US born and bred"? Hell, even I question the government all the time. And we have people who were not born who have served this country faithfully.

DesideriScuri -> RE: The Value of Birthright (6/6/2013 6:03:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl But why are we holding on to that same rule centuries later? How many of us are truly "US born and bred"? Hell, even I question the government all the time. And we have people who were not born who have served this country faithfully. There's that little thingy that some of us cling to called the US Constitution. Like I said, I won't stand in the way of an amendment that struck that requirement. Until then, it's the rule.

jlf1961 -> RE: The Value of Birthright (6/6/2013 6:08:05 PM)
why worry about it, before the next presidential election, every super volcano on the planet is going to erupt, there will be a magnitude 10 earthquake on the cascadia subduction fault, a magnitude 9 on the New Madrid fault, the whats its name volcano in the Canaries will erupt causing half the island to fall into the sea causing a Mega Tsunami of 100 meter height to heat the eastern seaboard. And we will be invaded by aliens.... And Tazzy will be infected with the carebear virus making her act sweet toward idiot lunatics.

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