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ORIGINAL: kdsub

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ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

That's lovely, Butch. Care to put the confidence your post expressed in our government next to the stories about what's been going on over at the IRS?

I have yet to form an opinion...From what I can gather there are at least three different government entities investigating the allegations. Why not wait for the reports to come in before accusing anyone or group? I have already stated in another thread that I believe a special prosecutor should be assigned if substantiated evidence comes forth from the on going investigations that laws were broken.

Until then I will wisely I think withhold judgment.

And sentiments above also apply to the NSA accusations. Right now it seems on the up and up but time will tell.. And until wrong doing is proven I will not jump on the "Oh my poor violated privacy" bandwagon.

Butch

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When Americans expressed outrage last week over the seizure and surveillance of Verizon's client data by the National Security Agency, President Obama responded: "In the abstract, you can complain about Big Brother . . . but when you actually look at the details, I think we've struck the right balance."

How many records did the NSA seize from Verizon? Hundreds of millions. We are now learning about more potential mass data collections by the government from other communications and online companies. These are the "details," and few Americans consider this approach "balanced," though many rightly consider it Orwellian.

These activities violate the Fourth Amendment, which says warrants must be specific—"particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." And what is the government doing with these records? The president assures us that the government is simply monitoring the origin and length of phone calls, not eavesdropping on their contents. Is this administration seriously asking us to trust the same government that admittedly targets political dissidents through the Internal Revenue Service and journalists through the Justice Department?
No one objects to balancing security against liberty. No one objects to seeking warrants for targeted monitoring based on probable cause. We've always done this.

What is objectionable is a system in which government has unlimited and privileged access to the details of our private affairs, and citizens are simply supposed to trust that there won't be any abuse of power. This is an absurd expectation. Americans should trust the National Security Agency as much as they do the IRS and Justice Department.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Am I the only one here deeply disturbed that this guy felt he had to run from the land of the free and the home of the brave to Red fucking China to maintain his freedom of speech?

Be careful who you enshrine as a hero. This guy who puts pillows at the bottom of his hotel door and covers his head with a hood when he is on a computer, fears the Triad will get him, and is according to recent reports already on the run from the hotel room where he registered in his own name.

Your 'hero' may turn out to be a nutter. A modern day true-believing Lee Harvey Oswald without a gun.

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne


WTF are you talking about?

WHAT DEMOCRACY?

The only democracy we have in america is the ability to choose a new dictatorial regime between the bought and paid for socialists and commies after that its out of our hands.

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ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

It saddens me also, yet without the faintest bit of surprise, to know that some of those who defend such activities are doing so, not because they have thought-out rational positions, but because that's how they keep their mouths wrapped around Obama's scrotum and testicles. If this had come to such light under Bush, those same individuals would be howling for blood and impeachment.

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We are deeply committed to the principles upon which The United States of America was founded, as articulated in the Declaration of Independence). These principles include free speech, not only because most people want to be able to speak without fear of reprisal, but because it is the duty of citizens of a democracy to keep themselves informed about public affairs, and to speak out when necessary to defend the democracy. Free speech is necessary for a successful democracy.

Note that we speak of our country's principles and our country's ideals. These are not always synonymous with our "country". Sometimes, we will be taking positions contrary to the views articulated by the political leaders of the day, or contrary to the acts of leaders acting on behalf of the country. We will always be guided by principle; we will therefore sometimes raise our voice in opposition to practices which we deem to be antithetical to those principles.

Taking such opposing positions will be acts of loyalty, not disloyalty, to our country. We salute and revere the vision, ideals, and sacrifices of untold legions of patriots who have worked valiantly for their country. We include as patriots not only our country's founding fathers, but also its fighting forces, its honest political leaders, and its everyday hard-working citizens in many walks of life. We are grateful to many more individuals than we can possibly know or acknowledge by name.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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Your speculation about Obama's scrotum and peoples' motives in this discussion is disgusting and a new low for you, Rich.

Its not new.

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Forget the investigations, Butch. Forget the unanswered questions of who knew what when, and how high it went. The established, unquestioned, facts of the matter that are on the table now about the IRS scandal, the stuff that they have admitted and said, "sorry," about is more than sufficient.

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ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

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ORIGINAL: vincentML
Your speculation about Obama's scrotum and peoples' motives in this discussion is disgusting and a new low for you, Rich.

I'm a free speech kind of guy, Vince. Feel free to use the hide button - Lord knows I do. My choice of verbiage merely reflects the disgust and contempt I have for those who think this kind of unconstrained power is a partisan matter.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

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ORIGINAL: vincentML
Your speculation about Obama's scrotum and peoples' motives in this discussion is disgusting and a new low for you, Rich.

I'm a free speech kind of guy, Vince. Feel free to use the hide button - Lord knows I do. My choice of verbiage merely reflects the disgust and contempt I have for those who think this kind of unconstrained power is a partisan matter.

The hide button? I'm surprised at you, Rich. I would have thought a free speech kinda guy would have the balls to withstand the blowback he receives from his own incivility. But, if you aint gottem you aint gottem. :::shrugs:::

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That ought to be enough to give anyone pause

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ORIGINAL: vincentML
The hide button? I'm surprised at you, Rich. I would have thought a free speech kinda guy would have the balls to withstand the blowback he receives from his own incivility. But, if you aint gottem you aint gottem. :::shrugs:::

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ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Those who do not see the connection between this level of government surveillance and the ultimate development of a dystopian world order are naive beyond belief. We are like frogs in a pot of water. Every small incremental change in temperature not noticeable until the water is boiling and we can't escape.

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ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
I'm wondering if that heart attack room Butch was using earlier is free. FTP and I are in complete agreement on something.