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RE: America is not the first surveillance state - 6/11/2013 1:08:47 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
I haven't seen anyone step forward yet to show they were harmed.


When there isn't authority to do something, it doesn't matter if it "harms" anyone or not (or yet). Best to wait until they abuse the powers they have assumed, caused someone harm, and then force them to roll it back, right?




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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: America is not the first surveillance state - 6/11/2013 1:12:40 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Which is how the law works.   Waiting on the abuse of it now.

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: America is not the first surveillance state - 6/11/2013 2:36:28 PM   
JeffBC


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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Which is how the law works.   Waiting on the abuse of it now.

Out of curiosity, what makes you think you will ever know how such a system was abused. Did you expect them to tell us? Did you expect them to use courts and whatnot? Why would they bother. Courts are so inconvenient... unless of course they are secret courts that issue secret rulings that only the government knows about or is able to be involved in. THOSE sorts of courts they like... sort of.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: America is not the first surveillance state - 6/11/2013 5:00:17 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Which is how the law works.   Waiting on the abuse of it now.



fss

I already pointed out it is a trespass on the case.

damage is already done unless of course you are owned then as slaves no damage has been done. they can take a scope and count the peanuts up your ass in that case.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: America is not the first surveillance state - 6/11/2013 5:02:34 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Which is how the law works.   Waiting on the abuse of it now.

Out of curiosity, what makes you think you will ever know how such a system was abused. Did you expect them to tell us? Did you expect them to use courts and whatnot? Why would they bother. Courts are so inconvenient... unless of course they are secret courts that issue secret rulings that only the government knows about or is able to be involved in. THOSE sorts of courts they like... sort of.




it allows them to do mass manipulation as well as drop the hammer on political opponents because there is no one in the us that has not unwittingly violated one of the 60 million +++ laws on the books in the clusterfuck we have today.,

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: America is not the first surveillance state - 6/11/2013 5:19:32 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline 		I feel Snowden has raised issues that need to be addressed. If the Constitution means anything at all, it means we need to at least understand what is going on here, and have the opportunity to discuss it. Sadly, even if the public disapproves of the government surveillance it is not clear that anything will change in the future. Government is not always open and has the ability to simply drive this surveillance further underground. We are entirely dependent on people like Snowden to even be aware that this type of stuff goes on. Essentially he has told us that the government (regardless of who is in Congress or who is in the White House) collects vast amounts of data on each and every one of us whether they have reason to or not. In addition they store this information indefinitely and can use it at any point in the future for any purpose. Just by participating in this discussion on this site - you are now in the database with a record of your views on this topic. And if at any point in the future your expressed views turn out to be in disfavor or illegal, the government now has the proof of "what you believe".

And the terrorists? The terrorists are the least of our worries. Seriously. We seem to be doing a great job of destroying our country and its freedoms from within without the terrorists having to do much of anything. Soon there won't be an America anymore. And it's not going to be because of the terrorists.

Those who do not see the connection between this level of government surveillance and the ultimate development of a dystopian world order are naive beyond belief. We are like frogs in a pot of water. Every small incremental change in temperature not noticeable until the water is boiling and we can't escape. Anyone recall V for Vendetta? Complacency is a terrible option.


V for Vendetta - Revolutionary Speech


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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: America is not the first surveillance state - 6/11/2013 5:28:35 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		begs the question: "Will the real terrorists please stand up?"

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to fucktoyprincess)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: America is not the first surveillance state - 6/11/2013 6:02:35 PM   
JeffBC


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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
Complacency is a terrible option.

Be that as it may, complacency is the option of most. That needs to be factored into any rational thoughts on "what to do". The vast majority of folks will not do anything until the jaws of the trap have snapped shut. In the end, as is always true, it comes down to the actions of one man. That man, in this hour anyway, is Snowden.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: America is not the first surveillance state - 6/11/2013 6:40:39 PM   
Marini


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Joined: 2/14/2010
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quote:

Out of curiosity, what makes you think you will ever know how such a system was abused. Did you expect them to tell us? Did you expect them to use courts and whatnot? Why would they bother. Courts are so inconvenient... unless of course they are secret courts that issue secret rulings that only the government knows about or is able to be involved in. THOSE sorts of courts they like... sort of.


I thought Ron knew the rules!!!

Checking the old school hippie rule book...........
Rule # 1--- NEVER Fully trust "THE MAN".



Damn Ron, I thought you knew!!!
You can trust him a little bit, but damn we are talking about "THE MAN" here.
Who the hell knows what "THE MAN" is really up to?
You must be getting soft.

Peace

< Message edited by Marini -- 6/11/2013 6:55:17 PM >

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"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
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Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: America is not the first surveillance state - 6/11/2013 6:53:22 PM   
JeffBC


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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
Rule # 1--- NEVER Fully trust "THE MAN".



This reminded me of a ??cell phone?? commercial a few years back. Some CEO was having a flashback to his hippy days and he blurts out, "Never trust the man!". His executive assistant says, "But Sir. YOU'RE the man!"

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: America is not the first surveillance state - 6/11/2013 7:20:15 PM   
Marini


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Joined: 2/14/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
Rule # 1--- NEVER Fully trust "THE MAN".



This reminded me of a ??cell phone?? commercial a few years back. Some CEO was having a flashback to his hippy days and he blurts out, "Never trust the man!". His executive assistant says, "But Sir. YOU'RE the man!"

Thanks for the chuckle, Jeff.
Opinions change and it's funny how people begin to believe and trust "people and systems" that they would not dare trust in their youth.

I will never fully trust "The Man", ever.
Peace

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: America is not the first surveillance state - 6/11/2013 9:22:12 PM   
BitYakin


Posts: 882
Joined: 10/15/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Question time then chaps.........

How would you enforce an effective surveillence system to halt another 9/11, or would you just figure that as the cost of having no state surveillence ?

Obama was 100% correct, you cant have both, as idyllic as it sounds.



Therein lies part of the problem, PS. You've bought into the offered why. You have been conquered, because it's not about ~9/11. It is, though, about YOU.


Just as I thought, no answer to my actual question.



ok I'll answer and you and others will call me names

the question is how do we enforce survielence or do we give up on it, in a nutshell

I'll say the SAME thing I said right after 9/11 we DO NOTHING DIFFERANT, cause the moment we CHANGED our lives we admitted DEFEAT

they are TERRORISTS, and the moment we started checking under EVERY ROCK for a potential DANGER we admitted we were IN TERROR... MISSION ACOMLISHED

when you REACT to terror you admit you are terrorised!

my kids used to SCREAM when they got mad or didn't get thier way, soo I'd ask em that the BEST YOU CAN DO and I'd scream then tell em ok now you scream didn't take long before they realized screaming disn't bother me at all and they stopped

so with ALL the things we have done has terrorism STOPPED? NOOO and why because we do exactly what they want us to do, we REACT to it!

we COMPRAMISE OUR VALUES to accomdate their stimuli

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: America is not the first surveillance state - 6/11/2013 11:17:11 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		~fast reply~
For those who care there are quite a few petitions up on whitehouse.gov like this one here to pardon Snowden.

I went there and searched for Surveillance.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to BitYakin)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: America is not the first surveillance state - 6/12/2013 1:18:06 AM   
Edwynn


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Joined: 10/26/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffB
You know, if it was simply PRISM I'd be alarmed.



If I wasn't aware that this has been going on for 200 years already, I'd be alarmed too.

Being that things such as this consistently engender some newfound putative "cause for alarm," I would actually only find alarm that this isn't known already.

Except that I'm just not alarmed anymore, actually.




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 6/12/2013 1:19:34 AM >

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: America is not the first surveillance state - 6/12/2013 1:45:33 AM   
Edwynn


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The best thing for US national security interests would have us as not invading two ME countries.

Don't let us hear anymore about any "national security" 'interests' until those responsible for the rise in terrorism in the US and in Europe are jailed for long term.

Last we looked, Cheney and Rumsfeld still roam free.

We got Saddam and Osama. Good work.

Only two more to go now.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: America is not the first surveillance state - 6/12/2013 3:31:58 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		Who will start a petition for Obama to abdicate? Wanna bet that the NSA puts a folder with all his Internet activities, including e-mail and forum posts, on Obama's desk within a couple of minutes?

And than next: the DRONE attack!

< Message edited by Rule -- 6/12/2013 4:03:50 AM >

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Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: America is not the first surveillance state - 6/12/2013 5:10:34 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Question time then chaps.........

How would you enforce an effective surveillence system to halt another 9/11, or would you just figure that as the cost of having no state surveillence ?

Obama was 100% correct, you cant have both, as idyllic as it sounds.

Actually, Jefferson said it a long time before Obama was even thought of.

Something along the lines of A nation that sacrifices liberty for security deserves neither.



I hate to nit pick but it was Franklin who said that. I do though agree with the sentiment.

Thank you for the correction.

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: America is not the first surveillance state - 6/12/2013 8:11:56 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Who will start a petition for Obama to abdicate? Wanna bet that the NSA puts a folder with all his Internet activities, including e-mail and forum posts, on Obama's desk within a couple of minutes?

And than next: the DRONE attack!

Abdicate? This aint Europe with yur kings and queens and princes and shit and yur sovereignty stiffling Brussels aparatchniks.

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: America is not the first surveillance state - 6/12/2013 8:20:32 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		maybe he knows something you dont! LOL

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: America is not the first surveillance state - 6/12/2013 8:32:04 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

maybe he knows something you dont! LOL

Evidently thinks this is the Netherlands.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 60
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