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RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/10/2013 7:36:29 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gyrle

Some background.

I have been explaining the dynamic to a vanilla friend, a man, who has met a woman who is a sub. He is vanilla, but she has disclosed to him her feelings, needs, and talked about the lifestyle. He is interested but cautious, with many many questions. Leaving aside whether one can 'introduce' a vanilla person to this and have it be successful. I have run up against a road block of explaining what happens, when the Dom (Master, Top even) messes up in some way.

If there are clear rules and a sub transgresses them, then s/he gets punished, we all understand that. And we all know that it is a good thing because it enforces boundaries, makes the sub feel safe, provides a mechanism for the sub to expiate her 'sins'. The vanilla guy gets all of that, but his question, very reasonably, is what happens when the Dom fucks up. What equivalent recourse does the sub have?

I have told him that in many relationships there are opportunities built in, for the sub to speak freely and explain how s/he is feeling and that if nothing changes, that ultimately the sub can walk away. Those options are also available to the Dom, 1) talking 2) walking, however the Dom has a third option (so to speak) the punishment, the mechanism by which a physical act allows the slate to be wiped clean...

does that exist when the Dom is at fault?? is their that 'third' option for the sub




When Master fucks something up he makes sure he fixes it. If it's something he did to someone then he apologizes and moves on. It's no different for us than any other relationship. He takes responsibility for his actions.


_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to gyrle)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/10/2013 7:41:42 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gyrle

if you were me would you point a new Dom to this post?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



HHHEEEEEELLLLL NO!

Let me make that a little clearer....fucking hell no!

Why? I'd tell him he is either a dominant personality. He either takes charge or he doesn't. It's nothing more complicated than that. If he needs someone to explain it to him then he probably isn't a dominant personality and this is probably all about kinky sex and role play for them and if that's the case, do whatever you both like. It's your lives.



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Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/10/2013 10:54:41 PM   
AthenaSurrenders


Posts: 3582
Joined: 3/15/2012
Status: offline 		FR

We do have a punishment dynamic that works beautifully for us so I feel like I should try to answer this question, but I'm struggling because it's not quite making sense with my experience.

For us, punishment is more of a ritual or a ceremony. It doesn't fix the relationship problem. It doesn't happen UNTIL we fix whatever problem has come up. We talk it through like adults. We figure out what went wrong and how. There is often an apology from one or both of us. There is sometimes a plan, if it's a big thing, as to what we will do in the future. There's a lot of love and sincere attempts to listen to each other's point of view and understand each other. We are pretty good communicators and we are both strongly committed to our relationship, so things don't come up very often. It's been months and months since there was a punishment, and it wasn't for screwing something up, it was for not giving a genuine effort - which I agreed. Mistakes are not a punishable offence, that's part of being human.

Then any punishment can happen. For me personally, absolution of guilt does come into it - I know many people find this unhealthy but for me, with my unique set of quirks and personality traits, this is a loving, helpful ritual which helps me move past whatever happened without dwelling on it excessively. It's also a way for both of us to set aside some time and mark our commitment to the dynamic in a physical sort of way. I still care enough to suffer for him. He can still be trusted to keep me safe. He cares enough to stick to the boundaries and invest time in 'correcting' me'. We can still find that bonding that works for us. I guess I'm not doing a great job of explaining it. But I've never felt it was an alternative to talking through the problem. Nor has it ever felt like a threat. I've never done or refrained from doing something through fear of punishment, I follow his lead because that's the life that makes us both happy. If we decided to no longer have a punishment dynamic, I'd still obey, it'd still work, and if anything the punishment is more for me than him as it keeps my insecurities in check.

So if he messes up - very, very rarely - we talk about it, we work it out, we find a way to both get our needs met. I don't hold it over him. I understand he's human too. Part 1 happens just the same. He would apologize if his actions hurt me. I've never thought in terms of 'I have the power to walk away' because we've never come within a mile of any problem that would be bad enough for me to do that. So long as we keep addressing the small things, we never will. No, he doesn't get the catharsis of a punishment, but then he doesn't need that - his brain works differently. Sometimes he might beat me, because it's an emotional release and a bonding thing. Not a punishment, but working much the same. And I hope I don't need to make it clear that this happens AFTER we've sorted things out to both people's satisfaction. It's not a case of beating me to deflect his own failings.

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Being your slave, what should I do but tend
Upon the hours and times of your desire?

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/11/2013 12:09:00 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Thank you for writing that Athena.

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"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to AthenaSurrenders)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/11/2013 1:25:51 AM   
gyrle


Posts: 3
Joined: 4/19/2013
Status: offline 		thank you folks for the additional thoughts

Focus50 what you said makes a lot of sense about the role/play versus being it being an innate characteristic. DarkStephen, SeekingTrinity, thank you for your points two, it seems to rest a lot on personal standards and integrity, once you know what you are doing, which makes Focus50 and littewonder's views even more significant,

Athena, your words describe your dynamic perfectly and beautifully- thanks.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/11/2013 5:35:26 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Athena, taint a damn punishment dynamic you been using...its an absolution dynamic.

When 97.9389% of the people talk about a punishment dynamic, they are refering to using punishment, often as the primary tool, to shape behavior. The mere fact they have to continue using it should point out its innefectiveness. In addition, its a sign to me someone has no idea how to shape behavior and or has anger issues and in general is a clueless top.

Shaping human behavior is complicated and requires a mix of reward, punishment, love, affection, and yes, sometimes a quick swat on the ass. Punishment is most effective at changing someones's interalized behavior when it is minor, over the top punishment is far less effective and it only tends to change how someone acts, not how they think. As in I normally drive 85mph on the freeway unless I see a cop.



(in reply to gyrle)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/11/2013 6:37:07 AM   
AthenaSurrenders


Posts: 3582
Joined: 3/15/2012
Status: offline 		Whatever you want to call it, doesn't matter. Perhaps I oversimplified in an effort to explain why I couldn't easily answer the OP. I'm also used to having to defend what I've often been told is childish, unhealthy or abusive, so that might be a part of it too.

Punishment has several purposes - to change behaviour, being the primary one that most people argue. As you pointed out yourself, punishment rarely changes a person's behaviour except to the extent necessary to avoid punishment - children learn to lie better, drivers slow down for traffic cameras etc. The exception to this is when the punishment is so debilitating and severe that a person would never risk it. Well, we can leave that aside because I assume most of us here would question a dominant's ethics if he or she were willing to cause serious harm.

The impression I got from the OP's post was that she was thinking of punishment as a way to change behaviour - the dominant can talk to the sub, leave the relationship, or punish. The other thing it made me think of was retribution - he/she has angered me, so I will punish them.

This is outside my experience and understanding, as I can't imagine how that would work productively in a relationship. So I was attempting to show another purpose of punishment - a wiping of the slate, an undertaking of a type of penance, whatever you want to call it. I don't think that makes it any less of a punishment, it's just a punishment with a different aim. The bit that actually reforms me and changes my behaviour is my love and respect for him, maybe clarification of the rule, an airing of grievances, or a plan which gives us both what we need. Retribution isn't an issue. Restitution is relevant - by undertaking whatever suffering he deems fit I am sort of 'making it up to him' in a way - demonstrating that I do wish to submit to his will even when it is unpleasant, that I am recommitting to my role etc.

Deterrence is only a minor issue (because of course a punishment is unpleasant) because if I need a deterrent beyond 'this might damage our happiness' then the relationship is probably already on the rocks. However we might use it for minor impulsive kinds of infractions where there's nothing personal at stake.

OK, I'm digging myself even deeper into my own ramblings here. Anyway, perhaps I made it sound simpler than it is, but I was trying to make the point that what the OP was asking didn't make total sense to my experiences.

_____________________________

Being your slave, what should I do but tend
Upon the hours and times of your desire?

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/11/2013 8:39:54 AM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders
This is outside my experience and understanding, as I can't imagine how that would work productively in a relationship.
Out of all the years that I've been doing this, I think I know one relationship that has managed to go long term under those conditions. And honestly, I think the submissive in that relationship has some issues that would benefit from some therapy.

quote:

So I was attempting to show another purpose of punishment - a wiping of the slate, an undertaking of a type of penance, whatever you want to call it. I don't think that makes it any less of a punishment, it's just a punishment with a different aim. The bit that actually reforms me and changes my behaviour is my love and respect for him, maybe clarification of the rule, an airing of grievances, or a plan which gives us both what we need. Retribution isn't an issue. Restitution is relevant - by undertaking whatever suffering he deems fit I am sort of 'making it up to him' in a way - demonstrating that I do wish to submit to his will even when it is unpleasant, that I am recommitting to my role etc.

Deterrence is only a minor issue (because of course a punishment is unpleasant) because if I need a deterrent beyond 'this might damage our happiness' then the relationship is probably already on the rocks. However we might use it for minor impulsive kinds of infractions where there's nothing personal at stake.
I've seen a lot of relationships like yours and they do survive because you're communicating and clear about what your process is.

It was like I said earlier, punishment without addressing cause and resolution will just cause resentment and anger, and it will eventually destroy the relationship.


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Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to AthenaSurrenders)
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RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/11/2013 9:01:05 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Its been my experience that if a dom feels a need to punish me, he is already losing control.



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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/11/2013 7:10:24 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I get so tired of people who aren't in a relationship telling everyone else how to live theirs. It's just disheartening.

I might recommend a new dom read this thread so he could see what not to do.
I'd be more likely to suggest he reads posts by people in long term successful d/s relationships to see the myriad ways this can work. And thus figure out what kind of relationship appeals to him the most.

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Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/13/2013 8:06:38 PM   
ThundersCry54


Posts: 71
Joined: 5/6/2013
Status: offline

I get so tired of people who aren't in a relationship telling everyone else how to live theirs. It's just disheartening.
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I always like reading your posts...

I agree with you!

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/14/2013 11:57:45 AM   
Dyfrynt


Posts: 202
Joined: 4/19/2011
Status: offline 		As to what happens when the Dom fucks up? It is not a matter of the sub having recourse, because that doesn't even come into the picture. When a Dom screws up, they accept responsibility, and they fix it. It's pretty much that straight forward.

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/14/2013 2:14:51 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gyrle

is their that 'third' option for the sub



Dominants may not get 'punished' but there are consequences to the choices made in life and orientation doesn't alleviate those consequences. It may be a loss of trust, loss of a submissive/slave or maybe someone will just feel bad but there is going to be some kind of consequence to people involved in poor behavior or who make poor choices. Sometimes the consequence is as simple as having to take time out from something that is fun or entertaining in order to discuss something more serious.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to gyrle)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 7/17/2013 10:47:57 PM   
ForgetToRemember


Posts: 48
Joined: 5/6/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dyfrynt

As to what happens when the Dom fucks up? It is not a matter of the sub having recourse, because that doesn't even come into the picture. When a Dom screws up, they accept responsibility, and they fix it. It's pretty much that straight forward.


Well put.

(in reply to Dyfrynt)
Profile   Post #: 34
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