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NSA guy under bush,Obama More Transparent Than Us... - 6/13/2013 9:29:38 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		I`m really starting to wonder why this President is being attacked over this and not the previous.


What`s the difference?



"Michael Hayden, NSA Director Under Bush: Obama More Transparent On Data Collection Than We Were"



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/13/michael-hayden-nsa_n_3434864.html?utm_hp_ref=politics


"Gen. Michael Hayden, NSA director under former president George W. Bush, defended the legality of the agency's massive phone and internet data surveillance programs on Wednesday, calling them important and suggesting that opponents didn't understand what was actually going on.

Speaking with CNN's Jake Tapper, Hayden downplayed criticism of the data collection effort as governmental overreach by claiming President Barack Obama's administration had actually been more forthcoming than Bush's on the issue.

"Frankly, the Obama administration was more transparent about this effort than we were in the Bush administration," he said. "I mean, they made this metadata collection activity available to all the members of Congress. Not just all the members of the intelligence committees."

Some lawmakers have admitted that they were aware of the NSA's activities before the string of reports last week, which has led many to defend the programs as vital and standard procedures. Others have spoken out against them in the wake of the recent disclosures, arguing that the reports held details that they hadn't been told about and wouldn't have supported.

Despite the supposed decision to loop in more lawmakers on the process, Hayden said that Obama's decision not to stop, and even expand, the NSA efforts was "really good news" and something of a redemption for national security officials in the Bush administration."

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RE: NSA guy under bush,Obama More Transparent Than Us... - 6/13/2013 9:39:51 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
I`m really starting to wonder why this President is being attacked over this and not the previous.

Some of us attacked Bush also. Not everyone sees the entire world through ideological lenses.

quote:

What`s the difference?

Perhaps a minor difference of degree. Obama is accelerating Bush's programs. But other than that, none. Certainly not enough of a difference to worry about.

"Michael Hayden, NSA Director Under Bush: Obama More Transparent On Data Collection Than We Were"
OK, struggling to stay within the TOS here.... I would call it naive thinking to assume that the NSA can be trusted to talk about their own efforts with any degree of honesty at all. These people lie for a living. Their entire mission is to be secret. Plenty of US history and, for that matter, world history supports the notion that spy agencies do shit they should not then lie about it. To believe anything else is to believe in some magical fairy land where unicorns romp among the rainbows. So I'm perfectly content to dismiss Hayden's entire thing as an utter fabrication.... especially because we KNOW FOR A FACT THAT IT IS.

"Gen. Michael Hayden, NSA director under former president George W. Bush, defended the legality of the agency's massive phone and internet data surveillance programs on Wednesday, calling them important and suggesting that opponents didn't understand what was actually going on.

Just a little reality check here. Is anyone surprised that Hayden thinks they are important? They are critically important to him and his mission. That is not the debate. The debate is over what that mission is exactly and at what price tag. But it doesn't take an IQ over 80 to realize that total surveillance of any population is a good thing from a spy's perspective.

"Frankly, the Obama administration was more transparent about this effort than we were in the Bush administration," he said. "I mean, they made this metadata collection activity available to all the members of Congress. Not just all the members of the intelligence committees."
I'll buy that. It's simply meaningless to me. For starters, the vast majority of congress are so clueless technology that they have no idea what they are talking about and they routinely refuse to listen to the experts. Secondly, I don't give a rats ass what CONGRESS knows about secret surveillance. I care about what I know. Congress' viewpoint on it is likely to be very different than my own.

Some lawmakers have admitted that they were aware of the NSA's activities before the string of reports last week, which has led many to defend the programs as vital and standard procedures. Others have spoken out against them in the wake of the recent disclosures, arguing that the reports held details that they hadn't been told about and wouldn't have supported.
So by these congressmen's own statement, they were not given enough information to make an informed decision... just as the American public is being given dribs and drabs now. The leak happened and the administration must do spin control. So they admit to spying on us all but tell us "it is for our own safety". Apparently a non-trivial number of us aren't content with that bargain (although apparently still a minority).

Despite the supposed decision to loop in more lawmakers on the process, Hayden said that Obama's decision not to stop, and even expand, the NSA efforts was "really good news" and something of a redemption for national security officials in the Bush administration."
So now.. when I say that Obama has accelerated Bush's efforts in making a surveillance state I can directly quote the head of the NSA, right? Whether you think that's a good thing or a bad thing it is a fact.

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RE: NSA guy under bush,Obama More Transparent Than Us... - 6/13/2013 9:58:31 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		Isn't this guy a "scumbag" and a "traitor" for speaking out about NSA activities? Oh, that's right. He's spewing the Pablum that the lying lunatic left enjoys hearing.



Peace and comfort,



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RE: NSA guy under bush,Obama More Transparent Than Us... - 6/13/2013 10:06:37 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
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Status: offline 		Tsk tsk... yet some of us on the "left" dont believe he is a traitor. His actions dont fit the definition.

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RE: NSA guy under bush,Obama More Transparent Than Us... - 6/13/2013 4:54:41 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
Isn't this guy a "scumbag" and a "traitor" for speaking out about NSA activities? Oh, that's right. He's spewing the Pablum that the lying lunatic left enjoys hearing.

I'm presuming you feel there is also a non-lunatic left? Alternately, I'm kind of curious whether you think I am left or right. I have voted democratic all the way up to Obama's 2nd term (ever since the Reps and Lewinsky.. before that I was Republican). So based on voting pattern I have a strong historical trend of "leftness". I think this guy is a scumbag and a traitor (in that he has sacrificed the constitution and everything this country stands for for power). I lump him in the same category as Obama.

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I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: NSA guy under bush,Obama More Transparent Than Us... - 6/13/2013 7:10:50 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		~fast reply~

Here is how much we can trust an "NSA guy"

I also wrote about Adrienne J. Kinne, an NSA intercept operator who attempted to blow the whistle on the NSA’s illegal eavesdropping on Americans following the 9/11 attacks. “Basically all rules were thrown out the window,” she said, “and they would use any excuse to justify a waiver to spy on Americans.” Even journalists calling home from overseas were included. “A lot of time you could tell they were calling their families,” she says, “incredibly intimate, personal conversations.” She only told her story to me after attempting, and failing, to end the illegal activity with appeals all the way up the chain of command to Major General Keith Alexander, head of the Army’s Intelligence and Security Command at the time.

Without documents to prove their claims, the agency simply dismissed them as falsehoods and much of the mainstream press simply accepted that. “We don’t hold data on U.S. citizens,” Alexander said in a talk at the American Enterprise Institute last summer, by which time he had been serving as the head of the NSA for six years. Director of National Intelligence James Clapper made similar claims. At a hearing of the Senate Intelligence Committee last March, he was asked, “Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?” To which Clapper responded, “No, sir.” The documents released by Snowden, pointing to the nationwide collection of telephone data records and not denied by government officials, prove the responses untrue.

From Wired's article on PRISM.

So in the last year-ish, the head of the NSA and the Director of National Intelligence have both lied directly and totally with no weasel words.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to JeffBC)
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