RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor

RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor

He is a Hero

42% (17)

He is a Traitor

20% (8)

He is something in between

37% (15)

Total Votes : 40

(last vote on : 6/18/2013 7:07:55 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

Message

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor (6/17/2013 4:59:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: HE is blowing the whistle on YOUR GOVERNMENT and the NSA breaking the constition a billion times every single day Just because you say so does not make it true...Unless something different comes out from the investigations there is nothing in this information gathering against the law or Constitution. Butch I'm not the one saying it. Watch the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN_4LyJsXrg

kdsub -> RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor (6/17/2013 5:02:05 PM)
You need to read up on how this works...you have it wrong. Information is stored in what are called lock boxes... NO ONE SEES IT... unless there is other evidence that deems a terrorist threat... THEN the evidence is presented to a judicial body that will issue a warrant before the contents of the information is examined. At least that is what we are being told. Like anything else time will tell... no one can keep secrets in Washington and if there is more to it we will hear. But until then I will go along with the 500+ congressmen and over site committees and what they are saying. Butch

kdsub -> RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor (6/17/2013 5:11:13 PM)
quote: Watch the video Go ahead and watch nutcase entertainers... Next you will be quoting Rush Limbaugh for Christ sake. What gives him inside knowledge and expertise?...If you are getting information from sources like that no wonder we can't agree on even the problem let alone the solution. Butch

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor (6/17/2013 5:11:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub You need to read up on how this works...you have it wrong. Information is stored in what are called lock boxes... NO ONE SEES IT... unless there is other evidence that deems a terrorist threat... THEN the evidence is presented to a judicial body that will issue a warrant before the contents of the information is examined. And those "warrants" (which aren't actual true judicial court warrants) are just signed off by the same department that is requesting them. The 'judicial body' that you are referencing is a board of people from the same department. It is NOT a true court of law. There is NO judicial process going on. quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub At least that is what we are being told. And what you are being told is what I am drawing your attention to - or at least trying to. You are being lied to. quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Like anything else time will tell... no one can keep secrets in Washington and if there is more to it we will hear. But until then I will go along with the 500+ congressmen and over site committees and what they are saying. Do you honestly believe that a department that is lieing to its people are going to tell the truth?? How many congressmen have lied and been proven to have lied?? You can be very dense at times. I don't live in the US and I was taken aback by what Dave said in his show. I don't even believe in our own politicians here in the UK. I am appalled that you won't even view the evidence he produces to show that the populace is being lied to by the very people you are willing to believe without question.

kdsub -> RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor (6/17/2013 5:23:09 PM)
It is not the same department... I am not saying there is no abuse...there is always, under any law or system, the chance of abuse. But as this is set up with checks and over site both congressional and judicial it is as safe as any plan or system within the law and Constitution. How is it different from the police that go to a judge and get a warrant to access the information of a suspected pedophile or drug dealer but in this case a terrorist and ONLY a terrorist suspect. It is just on a much larger scale. The difference is they collect vast amounts of information, that remains unseen or read on a NSA database for 5 years, and only accessed with a warrant issued by a judge, no different than any other judge except they are more in tune with the law involved. Butch

kdsub -> RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor (6/17/2013 5:32:20 PM)
I see the poll numbers have pretty well run its course and seem to mirror the latest CNN poll on Snowden. Nationally a little over half believe Snowden was wrong and not a hero by any means. a little over 40 percent believe his revelations were important and he was right to come forward. I am ending my comments for now because I have said my piece and no reason to repeat myself. I find myself arguing when this subject has been argued over and over in other threads and arguing was not my purpose. I don't want to change minds only poll them. Butch

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor (6/17/2013 5:49:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub It is not the same department... Actually, it is. Or something pretty much the same as makes no difference. The surveillance team want to watch XYZ. They go to their buddies down the hall and put in a chitty asking to do it. It's the same friggin group/company/authority.. whatever. The authorisation team sign it off. And that's where they get the authority from. It does not go through any legal court judiciary process at all. quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I am not saying there is no abuse...there is always, under any law or system, the chance of abuse. But as this is set up with checks and over site both congressional and judicial it is as safe as any plan or system within the law and Constitution. And that's exactly the point I'm making - no such checks and balances are done. It's about as safe as a pack of cards in a hurricane [:D] quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub How is it different from the police that go to a judge and get a warrant to access the information of a suspected pedophile or drug dealer but in this case a terrorist and ONLY a terrorist suspect. In these cases, it is heard in a court of law and it is judged by a genuine judge in his/her capacity as a legal judge. This is not the case with the NSA. quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub It is just on a much larger scale. The difference is they collect vast amounts of information, that remains unseen or read on a NSA database for 5 years, and only accessed with a warrant issued by a judge, no different than any other judge except they are more in tune with the law involved. That's the lie they are telling you. It does NOT go before a proper legal judge sitting in a proper law court and given due judicial process. That's the main and essential difference. ETA: trying to make a comparison for you that might make sense. If a local council want to do something, they apply for authorisation internally to their own approval department. It just gets rubber stamped. Nothing else happens on a judicial scale. However, if the police or a citizen want to do something, it has to go to a proper court, get sanctioned by a proper legal judge before any such approval can be granted. It does go through a proper judicial proces before being rubber-stamped. Do you understand the difference I am trying to point out? That's what is happening with the NSA - they are self-approving the breaking of privacy laws and your constitution.

nagabandha -> RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor (6/17/2013 5:52:04 PM)
the answer for me is he is neither.

Dyfrynt -> RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor (6/17/2013 6:33:57 PM)
At the end of the day Snowden has made himself a sacrificial lamb - and for no reason. He threw his life away to warn the American people what was going on behind their backs. And the American people yawned and went back to watching their reality shows. "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both. He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither." Benjamin Franklin.

pahunkboy -> RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor (6/17/2013 6:36:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dyfrynt At the end of the day Snowden has made himself a sacrificial lamb - and for no reason. He threw his life away to warn the American people what was going on behind their backs. And the American people yawned and went back to watching their reality shows. "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both. He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither." Benjamin Franklin. I certainly agree with you. People rather have their mindless pop culture-

kdsub -> RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor (6/17/2013 6:41:44 PM)
I think the you are wrong in your assessment of the American people... They are not apathetic about their freedoms just pragmatic. I believe most are wondering what all the hullabaloo is about because they assumed this information gathering was going on all along. They understand it... and want it... if it saves lives in a war. Of course this is my opinion again. ps...No freedoms or rights are being given up...remember the Constitution is being followed and old Ben would approve I'll bet. Butch

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor (6/17/2013 7:05:52 PM)
Pragmatic?? Possibly resigned and many ignorant of it perhaps. And there are many that behave like ostriches too. The problem is, as Dave quite rightly pointed out, if anyone wants to challenge it, the state pull the Ace trump card and say it has to be sumarilly dismissed because it's national security. If there were any judges or courts involved in anything to do with it, their hands are legally tied. He actually quoted one particular example where a widow was denied her due justice because of said trump card. But when the records were finally released after 25 years, it was proven to be that the state just scuppered her case for no actual reason because no state secrets or national security were involved. And this is why nobody has any legal recourse in what the NSA are doing to it's own citizens. They'll just fudge the reasoning and play that Ace trump card. And that's why I applaud the whistle-blower and call him a hero. A bit of a stupid one if you ask me because he gained nothing by it at all. But what other choice did he really have in the US? None whatsoever from what I can tell. And the source wasn't just the Dave Champion show either. Quite a lot of it hit the news over here too - and not just the one UK newspaper that made the interview public. And the BBC reported that many newspapers in HK also blurted out quite a bit of it as well. Whichever way you want to vote, I think his motives were honourable in wanting to let the American people know what was going on.... in secret and behind their backs.

kdsub -> RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor (6/17/2013 7:10:17 PM)
We think different... must be our upbringing as children and our life experiences. All I can say in my defense is my way of thinking more closely matches the general public of the US...so there...more of us than you...[:D] Butch

RedMagic1 -> RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor (6/17/2013 7:14:28 PM)
Without commenting on the poll, here's a link to his Q&A and discussion. http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/1gihc9/nsa_whistleblower_edward_snowden_live_qa_11am/

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor (6/17/2013 7:25:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub so there...more of us than you...[:D] Now that, I can't argue with!! lol What I did notice though, when I was in FL for 8 months, the US news was far more guarded and scant than what was observed being reported in the UK. I also noticed that the take/slant given to the news was also quite different on many things. Our BBC (that we pay a fucking fortune for) is world-renown for being forthright and generally quite upstanding and independant when it came to news reporting. When some of the news-style investigation programs are found to have tripped up (and often investigated by yet another BBC investigation program), all hell breaks loose and the shit hits the fan big-time. Twice, in recent times, the BBC Director General was 'retired' from office because of the blunder. Yet I haven't noticed that happening in US news outlets. I wonder why? And that's why I put more substance in what the BBC report than most other sources.

kdsub -> RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor (6/17/2013 7:35:20 PM)
I watch the BBC on my local public broadcasting network and do find world news to be more detailed. I often see stories on the BBC that are not reported at all on the major networks here. Our system is more geared to selling news rather than reporting it. Otherwise they often gloss over unpopular stories here because they are afraid of ratings...Or they lean towards one political party line in order to gain viewers of that parties supporters. They still honestly report the news but editorialize every story and suppress stories that do not conform to the party line. I am not saying there is no free press here... only that they are more interested in ratings for advertising money than to present a totally unbiased news report. Damn hacked my own thread. Butch

pahunkboy -> RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor (6/17/2013 7:37:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub so there...more of us than you...[:D] Now that, I can't argue with!! lol What I did notice though, when I was in FL for 8 months, the US news was far more guarded and scant than what was observed being reported in the UK. I also noticed that the take/slant given to the news was also quite different on many things. Our BBC (that we pay a fucking fortune for) is world-renown for being forthright and generally quite upstanding and independant when it came to news reporting. When some of the news-style investigation programs are found to have tripped up (and often investigated by yet another BBC investigation program), all hell breaks loose and the shit hits the fan big-time. Twice, in recent times, the BBC Director General was 'retired' from office because of the blunder. Yet I haven't noticed that happening in US news outlets. I wonder why? And that's why I put more substance in what the BBC report than most other sources. Cogent points on US media- I could not agree with you more.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor (6/17/2013 7:52:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 Without commenting on the poll, here's a link to his Q&A and discussion. http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/1gihc9/nsa_whistleblower_edward_snowden_live_qa_11am/ An interesting article, albeit short and edited, which backs up what I was arguing earlier in this thread that the NSA aren't doing this for the terrorist angle. To quote something I found from the IBT (http://www.ibtimes.com/nsa-surveillance-fisa-court-says-justice-department-should-publish-secret-court-document-1310737#)- “[PRISM] confirmed what we long suspected, that the NSA is gathering the communications records on millions and millions of Americans,” Rumold said. “We’ve been litigating these cases since 2006 and the government has done everything in their power to obstruct the court from deciding the legality.” Which also backs up what I said about illegal gathering of billions of info on American citizens.

VideoAdminChi -> RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor (6/18/2013 4:59:01 AM)
FR, A number of posts were removed for various violations, as were posts that quoted or replied to them. Please stick to the topic and do not make other posters the topic. Thank you for your participation. Moderator VideoAdminChi

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Poll: Edward Snowden hero or traitor (6/18/2013 6:08:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I watch the BBC on my local public broadcasting network and do find world news to be more detailed. I often see stories on the BBC that are not reported at all on the major networks here. Our system is more geared to selling news rather than reporting it. Otherwise they often gloss over unpopular stories here because they are afraid of ratings...Or they lean towards one political party line in order to gain viewers of that parties supporters. They still honestly report the news but editorialize every story and suppress stories that do not conform to the party line. I am not saying there is no free press here... only that they are more interested in ratings for advertising money than to present a totally unbiased news report. I think that's why the BBC world news is quite revered across the globe, for several reasons. It is independantly funded (by us license payers) so it has no political party or trade union bias. It has no advertising whatsoever so ratings are irrelevant to it apart from within itself. It is completely independant of any other news media. Many people/locations will allow a BBC team to report directly where others are refused. Most of their reports are done by their own TV crews, not 3rd-party sources. Most of their stories are usually corroberated/verified by reliable sources/witnesses before being broadcast or they state that it is unverified. They have arguably the largest number of 'native' reporters all over the globe - not just roving reporters. There are independant scrutineers as well as the BBC's own internal people that 'police' the organisation. It is the world's largest international broadcaster and has the largest integrated newsroom in Europe. It has built up it's independant and unbiased reputation since it first started on radio way back in 1932. Although it does have some grant from our Foreign Office, it costs us UK license payers an arm and a leg to fund the BBC because of its total independance from everything and everybody. As much as we gripe and moan about the cost, it does produce some of the best TV in the world and I am quite proud of the fact that it is indeed very unbiased and independant.

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