An example of why modern 'national security' databases are a bad idea. (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion



Message


Aswad -> An example of why modern 'national security' databases are a bad idea. (6/21/2013 2:56:59 AM)

In a somewhat recent event (August 2012), Danish federal police say, hackers broke into the Danish copy of the Schengen police database.

The Schengen police database was a unified database, although nowhere near as comprehensive as some that are out there, and- ironically- better guarded than the databases used in the Data Retention Directive in the EU (similar to PRISM in the USA). Each copy contained the full set of data for the 26 states that participate in the Schengen system.

As a result of this, criminals may now have full access to the following (and more):

- A warning list of all ongoing surveillance.
- A shopping list of qualified criminals that can be enlisted in major operations.
- An overview of all witnesses in past, current and future trials, including witness protection programme information (current whereabouts, current identity, security measures) and so forth.

These databases are too attractive targets for criminals, and the systems involved with these databases almost invariably grow to the point where significant vulnerabilities appear, no matter the effort invested, allowing criminals access to the information. This information has higher value to criminal actors than they do to the public, and thus more effort will be invested in criminal access to it than will be invested in keeping it safe. As such, we create more risk than we eliminate.

Just one of several reasons I mind these things.

IWYW,
— Aswad.





Politesub53 -> RE: An example of why modern 'national security' databases are a bad idea. (6/21/2013 5:33:38 AM)

Surely this is no different to criminals paying corrupt police officers for information, as when everything was held on a normal filing system ?




YN -> RE: An example of why modern 'national security' databases are a bad idea. (6/21/2013 5:36:42 AM)

This is similar to criminals printing the entire contents of the Metro Police files as books and distributing them.




Aswad -> RE: An example of why modern 'national security' databases are a bad idea. (6/21/2013 6:34:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Surely this is no different to criminals paying corrupt police officers for information, as when everything was held on a normal filing system ?


I'm floored, Politesub.

Don't you see a difference between getting a bundle with complete records for 26 countries versus bribing someone to pull a file?

Some of this stuff, a regular police officer can't even get access to.

Were you being sarcastic?

IWYW,
— Aswad.




GotSteel -> RE: An example of why modern 'national security' databases are a bad idea. (6/21/2013 7:54:31 AM)

I hope he was being sarcastic, because there is a staggering difference in scope here.




jlf1961 -> RE: An example of why modern 'national security' databases are a bad idea. (6/21/2013 7:58:47 AM)

Look people, should I win the lotto, I plan to spend a few million on fire arms and ammunition just so I can get on some national security watch list. I would get a hard copy and frame the page that my name shows up on.




joether -> RE: An example of why modern 'national security' databases are a bad idea. (6/21/2013 9:51:59 AM)

No fortress is invulnerable. But you can strive to make such fortresses as invulnerable as possible....

When people can be corrupted by criminal organizations, corporations, and even very rich people; what defenses will really stop those that want such information? One would need a group of uncorrupt-able individuals to maintain the defenses. So the question is: "How do you create the uncorruptable person"?




Politesub53 -> RE: An example of why modern 'national security' databases are a bad idea. (6/21/2013 1:11:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Surely this is no different to criminals paying corrupt police officers for information, as when everything was held on a normal filing system ?


I'm floored, Politesub.

Don't you see a difference between getting a bundle with complete records for 26 countries versus bribing someone to pull a file?

Some of this stuff, a regular police officer can't even get access to.

Were you being sarcastic?

IWYW,
— Aswad.



No I wasnt being sarcastic. Any information that the police hold has long been available at a price. Most prisoners already leanr more about crime and futures contacts while inside. Thats well known in the UK. My point remains, as Joe pointed out, people are corruptable. The only alternative is to delete every file everywhere. Police, banks, credit agencies, courts, hospitals etc...... no details can ever be kept 100% safe. Nor has that ever been the case.


The hacker concerned in this is said to be the co-founder of Pirate Bay. Nothing has been said about how far he managed to infiltrate the system, or detail any sensetive info he found.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: An example of why modern 'national security' databases are a bad idea. (6/21/2013 1:16:52 PM)

It is my honest belief that it is impossible for any institution/government/person to keep such volume of data completely secure, period. Given that, it should always be an issue of what information is stored, how much information is stored, etc. We are being foolish if we treat all information gathering and storage as entirely benign and safe activity that could never result in ill-doing or wrong. With that said, given where technology is today, I think trying to determine how to keep information (any information) completely private is eluding me. I don't see any of this heading to a good outcome in ultimate terms. [sm=2cents.gif]




Aswad -> RE: An example of why modern 'national security' databases are a bad idea. (6/21/2013 1:39:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

No I wasnt being sarcastic.


I hope you won't mind if I express some disappointment and disbelief at that.

quote:

Any information that the police hold has long been available at a price.


Much of the information wasn't available to the police to begin with, and certainly not in that volume. I agree that information on individuals has been quite readily available, but the aggregate data hasn't. The difference is akin to the difference between being able to call up the book store to see if they have one title in stock, versus browsing on Amazon, where you find books you didn't even know existed.

quote:

The hacker concerned in this is said to be the co-founder of Pirate Bay. Nothing has been said about how far he managed to infiltrate the system, or detail any sensetive info he found.


My sources indicate he got the whole database, and that police are "hopeful" he didn't share it with anyone.

You're right that there is limited transparency as regards what he got, which makes it more troubling. For instance, my sources state witness information was obtained (e.g. current location and identity for people in the witness protection programmes of member nations) for past, present and future trials, along with lists of current informants in organized crime. That's the sort of thing you'd want to actually be transparent about, so these people can take steps to ensure their own safety. The Santa Claus defense (i.e. wishful thinking) is insufficient.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

P.S.: The notion that these data can't be secured is essentially BS, but it's costly to do so and requires rigour, so won't happen.





Real0ne -> RE: An example of why modern 'national security' databases are a bad idea. (6/21/2013 2:44:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

No fortress is invulnerable. But you can strive to make such fortresses as invulnerable as possible....

When people can be corrupted by criminal organizations, corporations, and even very rich people; what defenses will really stop those that want such information? One would need a group of uncorrupt-able individuals to maintain the defenses. So the question is: "How do you create the uncorruptable person"?



the untouchables! woohoo

they dont exist.

the only way is rotating through the public randomly.

its why jurys were put in the constitution for everything.

too keep corruption at bay.

once institutionalized its all over mission creep sets in and you are done.






Real0ne -> RE: An example of why modern 'national security' databases are a bad idea. (6/21/2013 2:49:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Surely this is no different to criminals paying corrupt police officers for information, as when everything was held on a normal filing system ?


I'm floored, Politesub.

Don't you see a difference between getting a bundle with complete records for 26 countries versus bribing someone to pull a file?

Some of this stuff, a regular police officer can't even get access to.

Were you being sarcastic?

IWYW,
— Aswad.



No I wasnt being sarcastic. Any information that the police hold has long been available at a price. Most prisoners already leanr more about crime and futures contacts while inside. Thats well known in the UK. My point remains, as Joe pointed out, people are corruptable. The only alternative is to delete every file everywhere. Police, banks, credit agencies, courts, hospitals etc...... no details can ever be kept 100% safe. Nor has that ever been the case.


The hacker concerned in this is said to be the co-founder of Pirate Bay. Nothing has been said about how far he managed to infiltrate the system, or detail any sensetive info he found.



if privacy were upheld with huge liability in damages being rewarded to these agencies for allowing information regardless of the method and they would be only too happy to destroy all records all the time once the costs due to corruption to keep them becomes untenable.





Real0ne -> RE: An example of why modern 'national security' databases are a bad idea. (6/21/2013 2:51:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

It is my honest belief that it is impossible for any institution/government/person to keep such volume of data completely secure, period.


hence they should not have it, or we should be able do do the suz e q on their asses and retire from it.




Aswad -> RE: An example of why modern 'national security' databases are a bad idea. (6/21/2013 2:54:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

It is my honest belief that it is impossible for any institution/government/person to keep such volume of data completely secure, period.


Nobody can keep data completely safe.

But we can keep data arbitrarily safe, within well defined parameters, if we're willing to do it.

For instance, one reasonable security constraint on such a database is that aggregate data access is- under all reasonable circumstances- restricted to qualified and authorized personell working on site in a dedicated facility that has adequate security measures in place, with the additional requirement that any and all aggregate accesses have an unambiguous and identifying chain in all respects, leading to well identified individuals that are accountable and subject to both random and purposeful auditing, along with the process itself and the auditing process.

For these purposes, 'reasonable' is defined by the principle of least concern. The principle of least concern is the one that says that if your wallet can be obtained only when you're dead, then your wallet is 'reasonably' safe, because the safety of your wallet is a least concern when you're dead. Transposed to a secure facility, if the data can only be accessed in a way that circumvents the defined safety parameters by securing and maintaining physical control over the facility for an hour or more, then the facility is reasonably safe, because the safety of the facility and its data are a least concern when there are organized criminals or foreign militaries holding a national security facility by force for an hour or more.

There are no legitimate tasks that require aggregate data access to such a database that can be correctly performed by an individual lacking the necessary training, qualifications or authorizations to do those tasks. A police officer at the local PD does not require aggregate data access. When such access is required, you want to know who requested it and why, and you want to know who carried it out and how, and you want to know who got the results and why, as well as who authorized each of these steps. And you want it done by someone that knows how to work with aggregate datasets anyway. Hence, formal channels with clear procedures are put into place to ensure the defined constraints are upheld.

And here's an interesting point about this: if you document the whole system transparently, the whole nation can then inspect the procedures in place, along with the laws that govern what you can do with this data, and be ensured (not assured) that the system in place adequately prevents both unauthorized and/or illegal uses of the database as a whole.

Similarly, you can have procedures in place for normal accesses, the ones where police pull a file or whatever, and have a proper audit trail in place, ensuring that there is a high probability of detecting unauthorized and/or illegal access/use of the data. Do that transparently, and universities and security professionals worldwide will alert you to possible loopholes and potential improvements. It takes away much of the problem with crooked police on this point, too, as few crooked police are willing to accept a very high, well known, well documented risk of getting caught and having severe penalties alongside the loss of their profession and condemnation of their peers and communities; out of the few that are willing, you will catch most of them and weed them out.

This sort of thing, however, clearly isn't a priority, and it doesn't fit how "we" want to work, apparently.

Else, the Schengen database wouldn't have been compromised.

As a sidebar...

It constantly amazes me that we apply advanced analysis techniques to things that are of marginal concern (terrorism, while dramatic when it happens, is far down the list of things that adversely affect people's lives, except through the secondary effects on politicians' actions), but don't apply them to quality assurance in fields that impact the entire population. Police departments aren't monitored this way to catch crooked cops, but the general population is to supposedly catch terrorists. Politicians voting patterns aren't crossreferenced with their financial status to safeguard against bribes. Many places don't even have formal checklists for surgical teams in hospitals.

We have some amazing technology and techniques available, but we're still using it for the same nonsense we always do.

And, in the process, we create new vulnerabilities that didn't exist before we created them.

Imagine if the resources and competency involved in e.g. the PRISM collaboration had been used to analyze teachers and schools to find and disseminate the best approaches for improving life outcome expectancies in the general population; or to analyze the medical personell and hospitals to improve the standards of healthcare provided to the population; or to (gasp!) monitor corporations, politicians and interest groups to keep them honest and the public informed as to their actions and their ties to each other.

Or, for a more apples to oranges thing, the same funds allocated to that one project could be used to provide healthcare to about ten million people to a higher standard than what most in the US can afford, saving more lives in a year than terrorism has claimed this century in the same geographical area.

Those priorities are pretty messed up, if you ask me.

End rant.

IWYW,
— Aswad.





Real0ne -> RE: An example of why modern 'national security' databases are a bad idea. (6/21/2013 3:23:06 PM)

doesnt matter.

the cheese walks in and says aye boyz I want these files on my desk asap and they are not gonna tell da man no.

however rotating public would stick a barrel up his nose

once its institutionalized there is no way around mission creep and corruption.

If you believe there is by all means plead your case.




Politesub53 -> RE: An example of why modern 'national security' databases are a bad idea. (6/21/2013 4:35:08 PM)

"I hope you won't mind if I express some disappointment and disbelief at that."

Aswad, feel free my friend. We wont agree on everything.

Granted the level of data protection is poor, but we are talking of Governments. They cant get most data systems to run properly, let alone keep them safe. I am also worried about leaving such contracts in the hands of US firms, and in many cases, Chinese equipment. Who keeps checks on these ?




Real0ne -> RE: An example of why modern 'national security' databases are a bad idea. (6/21/2013 6:49:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

"I hope you won't mind if I express some disappointment and disbelief at that."

Aswad, feel free my friend. We wont agree on everything.

Granted the level of data protection is poor, but we are talking of Governments. They cant get most data systems to run properly, let alone keep them safe. I am also worried about leaving such contracts in the hands of US firms, and in many cases, Chinese equipment. Who keeps checks on these ?


if thats the case then they should not have it. pretty simple.

hell they cant even run a whorehouse much less anything else.

The Government can't run a whorehouse so you give them your banks
When this hit my mailbox, I was like oh no this can't be true:


Back in 1990, the Government seized the Mustang Ranch brothel in Nevada for tax evasion and, as required by law, tried to run it. They failed and it closed. Now we are trusting the entire economy of our country to same guys who couldn't make money running a whore house and selling booze?

I mean like we all know how the government threw away millions in their failure to help Katrina Victims. And spent how much on a Bridge to Nowhere in Alaska. And state and local agencies this year have not paid $254 million in tax's due because they can't run a "local agency" efficiently. And continues to pay pensions to convicted lawmakers/breakers.


and your safety? your private information? what a joke! we can all sit around and talk about the ideal situation and that my friends is the real world!







Aswad -> RE: An example of why modern 'national security' databases are a bad idea. (6/21/2013 7:05:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Aswad, feel free my friend. We wont agree on everything.


I guess we can agree on that. [:D]

quote:

Granted the level of data protection is poor, but we are talking of Governments. They cant get most data systems to run properly, let alone keep them safe.


That's part of my point, I suppose: children shouldn't play with matches in the barn unsupervised, and these children just plain refuse to be supervised or even to let anyone know where they are or what they're doing. As a result, there's a lot of smoke in the air, and a shrill «All's well! I got it under control!» that lacks any reassuring qualities to it whatsoever. Hell, I know people that may get burned from this particular incident. People that would've been safer if this database hadn't existed.

quote:

I am also worried about leaving such contracts in the hands of US firms, and in many cases, Chinese equipment. Who keeps checks on these ?


Checks? You seem to be under the mistaken impression that the security is held together by more than a coat of paint and some happy thoughts.

Incidentally, how's things looking for the minister that went on record denying the activities of the GCHQ right before those were disclosed (and the bit about spying at the last summit meeting, a few days ago)? I'm curious how such things go in the UK, compared to over here. It seems like the sort of thing the party might amputate over to preserve face, if it were in this neck of the woods.

IWYW,
— Aswad.





kdsub -> RE: An example of why modern 'national security' databases are a bad idea. (6/21/2013 7:49:08 PM)

nm




Politesub53 -> RE: An example of why modern 'national security' databases are a bad idea. (6/22/2013 5:17:53 AM)

Aswad...... The news broke on Friday so Sundays round of political chat shows should be interesting. Expect much to be made of this Monday when Parliament gets back to work.




Page: [1] 2   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.046875