RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE

RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (Full Version)

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Raiikun -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 7:13:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML The aggressor at the MOMENT of self-defense by definition was Martin. Zimmerman cannot be the self-defender and the aggressor at the same time. It is an idiotic presumption. That's not how I read that law. The way I saw it, "the aggressor" is the person that actually started the altercation, not necessarily the one 'at the moment' as per your description. If, GZ was armed and following Martin, and Martin had a perfect legal right to be there (staying with family), then it could very easily be determined that Martin thought that he was being unjustly targetted and therefore being "stalked" by GZ. That in itself would make GZ the "aggressor" in this instance and by that FL law, Martin had every right to use whatever force was necessary to stop that aggressor - even lethal force if he thought it necessary. Alas, Martin is dead so his side of the argument will never really be known. Just to be clear BTW, being the aggressor in Florida requires the use or intentional threat of force. Following doesn't do it, nor does a verbal confrontation. (Note, even the State's investigator had to admit under oath that there is no evidence of George confronting Trayvon.) quote: Personally, I feel that GZ was a paranoid fuckwad that went OTT and made a fuck-up which ended up with Martin being shot and killed. GZ has now fabricated a believable story for a defense and is relying on people believing it. And like any 1-sided story, GZ will be the only person on earth who knows the real truth. Just my [sm=2cents.gif] George is fortunate then at how overwhelmingly the evidence corroborates his claims.

vincentML -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 7:15:58 PM)
quote: If a victim was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked where he or she was allowed to be, then the defendant has no duty of retreat and has a right to use force, or even deadly force, if the defendant (under those circumstances) reasonably believed that his or her use of force was necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm. This is the key provision of Florida’s “Stand your Ground” law. Would this statement also be true, since Trayvon Martin confronted Zimmerman, by Zimmerman's own statement? Martin has no claim to self defense; he is not on trial. Jesus Jlf! The hour grows late here in Florida. Time for some Zzzzzzzzz. Thanks kids [:D]

DomKen -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 7:19:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: There is no benefit to anyone from the reasonable man standard. The jury is only to consider what the putative reasonable man would do or think in said situation. That is why it is such an important part of criminal law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_person No, the jury is to consider the circumstances from the way things appear to the one claiming self defense. You are citing wiki and I gave you the web page of a florida law firm. I'll go with the Florida Law Firm. I know this part of common law very well. The reasonable man standard excludes everything about the person involved and says that the event is to be evaluated based on how a reasonable member of the community would react. You've even quoted that up thread in post 537 quote: The jury will examine what a reasonable person would have done under the circumstances appearing to the defendant at the time of the incident.

Owner59 -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 7:28:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: If a victim was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked where he or she was allowed to be, then the defendant has no duty of retreat and has a right to use force, or even deadly force, if the defendant (under those circumstances) reasonably believed that his or her use of force was necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm. This is the key provision of Florida’s “Stand your Ground” law. Would this statement also be true, since Trayvon Martin confronted Zimmerman, by Zimmerman's own statement? Martin has no claim to self defense; he is not on trial. Jesus Jlf! The hour grows late here in Florida. Time for some Zzzzzzzzz. Thanks kids [:D] Not the point. Martin had every reasonable RIGHT to self-defense....... period. The fact that George killed him doesn`t change that.

dcnovice -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 7:42:47 PM)
quote: Martin has no claim to self defense; he is not on trial. That point has come up a couple of times in this thread. Literally, it's obviously true. But isn't Martin essentially being tried in absentia for being a thug, potential robber, potential drug user/dealer,* assailant--and, of course, a mortal threat to Zimmerman? *It was helpfully pointed out earlier in the thread that Skittles can be used to make drugs (meth, I think).

Hillwilliam -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 7:47:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: Raiikun quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Will anyone believe that as reasonable people? He was following him right up until he killed the guy. Untrue. He spent several minutes on phone with dispatch not even knowing where Trayvon was before getting attacked 10 seconds jog away from his truck. Based on the map here http://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-path.jpg It looks to be about 400' by foot from the truck to where the altercation occurred. If you can jog that in 10 seconds, the USOC wants you to sign up because there's gold in your future. That map is wrong. The truck was parked by the sidewalk leading to the T. suuure it is.[8\|] Got a better one? Don't need a better one. This is known fact now. Translation. "I made it up and I'm standing by the story."

jlf1961 -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 7:50:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: If a victim was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked where he or she was allowed to be, then the defendant has no duty of retreat and has a right to use force, or even deadly force, if the defendant (under those circumstances) reasonably believed that his or her use of force was necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm. This is the key provision of Florida’s “Stand your Ground” law. Would this statement also be true, since Trayvon Martin confronted Zimmerman, by Zimmerman's own statement? Martin has no claim to self defense; he is not on trial. Jesus Jlf! The hour grows late here in Florida. Time for some Zzzzzzzzz. Thanks kids [:D] Wrong, he IS on trial. Zimmerman's whole defense rests on self defense, which means that Martin was involved in some criminal activity. If Martin was reacting to being followed, he had every right to confront Zimmerman, and this very situation was Zimmerman's own fault. Sorry, but if somebody was following me while I was walking and doing nothing illegal, I am going to confront the bastard. The difference is that when I confront the person following me, he is going to be looking down the barrel of a 1911 .45ACP, and if he makes a move to draw a weapon, then the next person he will be talking to will be the doorman to heaven or hell, which ever he is destined to be going to, unless of course he identifies himself as a police officer. Since Trayvon was to young to have a concealed carry permit, he is just shit out of luck, an over zealous individual who by his own admission was told to stop following Trayvon, basically had an open season on the young man.

TheHeretic -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 7:53:51 PM)
DC, unless the jury has the option of convicting on manslaughter or negligent homicide, the verdict won't be justice, one way or another, and justice isn't what the mob (either one) wants anyway. If Trayvon thought he was a bad-ass, street fighting man, then that is a fact that needs to be in evidence.

dcnovice -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 7:56:04 PM)
quote: If Trayvon thought he was a bad-ass, street fighting man, then that is a fact that needs to be in evidence. Fair enough, but then there's an extent to which Martin is indeed on trial.

dcnovice -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 7:57:07 PM)
FR I may be the only person in North America who hasn't made up his mind on this case.

jlf1961 -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 8:07:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice FR I may be the only person in North America who hasn't made up his mind on this case. Actually, DC, I have been raising questions from both sides, but one that has really bugged me. Martin told a friend on the phone he was being followed. Now as far as what has been said by Zimmerman, the only thing Martin was doing was walking at night in a community in which he was living. Nothing in the call Zimmerman made to 911 implied any different. There was an African American youth in dark clothing walking around in a gated community. Now Martin chose to confront the man following him, which is legal under the laws of Florida, just as it was legal for Zimmerman to follow him, put him on edge, and then when he was confronted, shoot him after a physical altercation. Both men stood their ground, one died. As I said earlier, I notice someone following me at night, I am going to confront said individual, putting my 45 in his face and demanding to know just what the fuck he is so interested in me for.

Owner59 -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 8:11:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic DC, unless the jury has the option of convicting on manslaughter or negligent homicide, the verdict won't be justice, one way or another, and justice isn't what the mob (either one) wants anyway. If Trayvon thought he was a bad-ass, street fighting man, then that is a fact that needs to be in evidence. I would agree he was over charged. A bad move by the state. As to the ill intentions of the public.......heal thyself 1st.

DomKen -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 8:12:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: Martin has no claim to self defense; he is not on trial. That point has come up a couple of times in this thread. Literally, it's obviously true. But isn't Martin essentially being tried in absentia for being a thug, potential robber, potential drug user/dealer,* assailant--and, of course, a mortal threat to Zimmerman? *It was helpfully pointed out earlier in the thread that Skittles can be used to make drugs (meth, I think). He's not supposed to be and the judge has kept most (all) such stuff out.

TheHeretic -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 8:14:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice FR I may be the only person in North America who hasn't made up his mind on this case. Could be. Personally, I'm well locked in to the opinion that if Zimmerman had stayed in his car, Martin would still be alive.

DomKen -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 8:16:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic DC, unless the jury has the option of convicting on manslaughter or negligent homicide, the verdict won't be justice, one way or another, and justice isn't what the mob (either one) wants anyway. If Trayvon thought he was a bad-ass, street fighting man, then that is a fact that needs to be in evidence. I would agree he was over charged. A bad move by the state. As to the ill intentions of the public.......heal thyself 1st. In Florida the jury instructions for second degree murder include the lesser included charge of manslaughter and a bunch of even lesser charges so it may be possible for the jury to return a guilty verdict on those lesser charges.

Owner59 -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 8:17:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice FR I may be the only person in North America who hasn't made up his mind on this case. I`ve been going on just what I`ve seen and heard. I`m open to be convinced that the homicide was justified but I haven`t seen any evidence. If I do I`ll change my mind. The politics and what the media has done is a whole other clusterfuck and hasn`t made me any more sympathetic toward George.

Hillwilliam -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 8:18:11 PM)
Here's my thoughts Martin was damn sure no angel but he was doing nothing wrong that night. Zimmerman is one of those testosterone filled fuckwits who gives all of us responsible gun owners a bad name. Zimmy decided to play batman and robin all at once and fucked up by the numbers and someone is dead. Zimmerman will probably get off due to lack of compelling evidence.

TheHeretic -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 8:22:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice Fair enough, but then there's an extent to which Martin is indeed on trial. Oh absolutely, DC. There is no disagreement there.

dcnovice -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 8:25:38 PM)
I have a special sympathy for those jurors, having done a murder case myself. Anyone know why there are only six?

jlf1961 -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (6/29/2013 8:26:02 PM)
I am going to ask a question to everyone that has posted anything on this topic. Please give honest answers. If you are walking alone at night, in the ran, on the way home from buying a package of skittles and doing nothing that could be construed as criminal, and you notice someone following you, just what the hell are you gonna do?

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