RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (Full Version)

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mnottertail -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 8:19:07 AM)

Pursuant to section 776.012, Florida Statutes (2004), a "person is justified
in the use of deadly force only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is
necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or
another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony." See also Weiand
v. State, 732 So. 2d 1044, 1049 (Fla. 1999). A person under attack has a duty to
"retreat to the wall" before taking a life; the person must have used all reasonable
means in his power, consistent with his own safety, to avoid the danger and to avert the
necessity of taking human life. Soberon v. State, 545 So. 2d 490 (Fla. 3d DCA 1989).
When a person is attacked within his or her own home, however, a
different standard applies.
[W]hen a person is in his own home and he or the members
of his family are assaulted or placed in apparent imminent
danger of great personal injury, he has the right to stand his
ground and meet force with force, even to the extent of
taking life if he actually believes, and the circumstances and
surrounding conditions are such that a reasonably cautious
and prudent person would believe, danger of death or great
personal injury to be imminent, at the hands of [the]
assailant.
Harris v. State, 104 So. 2d 739, 743 (Fla. 2d DCA 1958); see also Weiand, 732 So. 2d
at 1049. In some cases, this "castle doctrine" is described as follows: "[W]hen one is
violently assaulted in his own house or immediately surrounding premises, he is not
obliged to retreat."


And there is more.....................so the retreat issue was mooted, however it goes into great detail on steps that Jenkins took to descalate the situation, as well AS well as this bit of problematical stuff:

However, these cases all involve
clear aggression by the victim, evidence that the defendant could not retreat, and
evidence that the defendant took some effort to ward off the attack or end it without
violence.

In others, the State presented evidence that the defendant had a specific
opportunity for escape but instead chose to continue the altercation. (conviction held)

Although Mr. Jenkins came out of the trailer holding a hammer
and with a sheathed knife on his belt, the State's witnesses confirmed that these items
were customary tools of Mr. Jenkins' trade, not weapons procured specifically to fight
Mr. Cerezo.

and so on.........





truckinslave -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 8:20:48 AM)

quote:

Walking down the sidewalk is an action that everyone is entitled to.


Which is, of course, exactly what Zimmerman was doing when he was attacked by Martin.




mnottertail -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 8:22:29 AM)

No, not exactly, he was aggravatedly stalking him while using a sidewalk.




Raiikun -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 8:25:41 AM)

Keep in mind too, the original Jenkins case was 2004, prior to the stand your ground law being passed. Hence why that DCA ruling makes a bigger deal about castle doctrine that no longer exists, as in 2005 the duty to retreat was removed outside the home as well.

So, again, Jenkins is entirely on point about ability to retreat.




Hillwilliam -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 8:26:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
Actually a medical expert just testified under oath on Friday that the lacerations and many bumps on his head was consistent with it being smacked on concrete and that what George did to stop the attack could have saved his life.


Staying in his truck and letting professionals do their job could have saved his life too.

No medical expert testimony needed to figure that one out, for a sane person.






That is as absurd as telling a pedestrian hit on the sidewalk by a drunk driver 'if you had stayed at home, you wouldn't have gotten hit.'


Mice flailing.

Wandering around in the dark playing 'supercop' with your firearm in the wrong place (holster) against all guidelines for community watch is irresponsible as hell.

Walking down the sidewalk is an action that everyone is entitled to.

Next thing, you'll be saying that people who are out walking and get struck by lightning are irresponsible as well.[8|]


No evidence of playing super cop, wearing the gun wrong, or breaking gudelines of community watch.

Wendy Do rival, the neighborhood watch coordinator for Sanford Police says they permit neighborhood watch to carry.

quote:

Next thing, you'll be saying that people who are out walking and get struck by lightning are irresponsible as well.


Actually I was saying the opposite.

I'll type this slowly just for you.
Neighborhood watch is allowed CC.
In their guidelines, they are NOT allowed to pursue or go looking for suspected perps. They are like mall cops "Observe and report" ONLY. Had he done that,this discussion would not have occurred and someone committed no crime that night would have been alive the next morning.
Zim was the kind of idiot that gives those of us who are responsible carriers a bad name.
I don't know about your CC class (or if you even had one) but in mine, I was told that if you suspect you are going to have a problem, get the damn gun out.
It does no one any good in a holster.
A firearm is simply a weapon that extends your reach. If you carry it, you should be prepared to use it.....Zim wasn't prepared at all. If he had been prepared, there would never have been physical contact between the 2 because of that extended reach.
I will go so far as to say that had he had the weapon drawn, he wouldn't have been approached by Martin as most youth in Miami (I lived there 18 years) know that when someone shows you a gun, you show them cheeks and elbows.
It has worked that way for thousands of people. Perp threatens, perp sees gun, perp gets the hell outa dodge, no one gets hurt.

Zim either had poor training or forgot all of it.




Wendel27 -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 8:26:39 AM)

''You haven't had much training have you? ''

A fair amount Hillwilliam as part of job requirement. I've also been exposed to a great deal of experience within that working enviroment. Certainly enough to know that most people's expectations of what happens in an average fight are about as on par with reality as the Matrix Reloaded.




mnottertail -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 8:33:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

Keep in mind too, the original Jenkins case was 2004, prior to the stand your ground law being passed. Hence why that DCA ruling makes a bigger deal about castle doctrine that no longer exists, as in 2005 the duty to retreat was removed outside the home as well.

So, again, Jenkins is entirely on point about ability to retreat.



We are not talking stand your ground, there is no stand your ground in this case.

This is a self defense case. Stand your ground would get him the chair. Stand your ground gives Martin the edge, and it would be clear murder, prima facie, it was his neigborhood.


http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html




Hillwilliam -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 8:34:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wendel27

''You haven't had much training have you? ''

A fair amount Hillwilliam as part of job requirement. I've also been exposed to a great deal of experience within that working enviroment. Certainly enough to know that most people's expectations of what happens in an average fight are about as on par with reality as the Matrix Reloaded.


I was a 4x national qualifier between freestyle and Greco.
I competed and coached for 13 years
I also helped with advanced hand to hand for some of the Metro Dade SWAT teams. In return, I got some really nice shooting instruction because some of those fuckers were GOOD shooters.

The way we got their attention was to have a guy who was about 5'4 and 130 walk away from the biggest guy on the team (typically 6'4 plus and a gym rat). He got to pick his moment and try to take R down.

One of the cops lasted 8 seconds before he was incapacitated and in a position to be terminated via cervical dislocation. R was ex special forces. The rest of us bunch of nasties all had our specialties

When I refer to "had much training", that's what I was talking about.

ETA, yes, I've been engaged by "street brawlers" and my face is scar free.




Raiikun -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 8:35:40 AM)

quote:

I don't know about your CC class (or if you even had one) but in mine, I was told that if you suspect you are going to have a problem, get the damn gun out.


Maybe you missed me saying that there was no reason that George would have expected a problem.

The guy was running away. Noffke asks where he is running, George gets out of vehicle to answer. Noffke advises he didn't have to follow, and George stopped, having already lost the kid who was running away.

There is no reason to think at the time George expected the person who ran away to double back and sucker punch him.




Raiikun -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 8:38:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

Keep in mind too, the original Jenkins case was 2004, prior to the stand your ground law being passed. Hence why that DCA ruling makes a bigger deal about castle doctrine that no longer exists, as in 2005 the duty to retreat was removed outside the home as well.

So, again, Jenkins is entirely on point about ability to retreat.



We are not talking stand your ground, there is no stand your ground in this case.

This is a self defense case. Stand your ground would get him the chair. Stand your ground gives Martin the edge, and it would be clear murder, prima facie, it was his neigborhood.


http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html



You are just throwing out red herrings (and ones not based in reality). The Jenkins case was brought up to respond to a point about ability to retreat, on which it is exactly on point.

Whether it was a SYG case (it hadn't existed yet) is a distraction.




Hillwilliam -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 8:38:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

I don't know about your CC class (or if you even had one) but in mine, I was told that if you suspect you are going to have a problem, get the damn gun out.


Maybe you missed me saying that there was no reason that George would have expected a problem.


Suspects someone is a criminal and and doesn't expect a problem?


Are you saying Zim was THAT fucking stupid? At least we agree on something[:D]




Arturas -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 8:41:22 AM)

2011 Florida Statutes



Title XLVI
CRIMES

Chapter 776
JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE

View Entire Chapter
For those of you that need a reminder, this is the Florida "Stand your ground" law. Note the statement "he or she reasonably believes...to prevent great bodily harm to himself". Who here thinks head injuries are not "great bodily harm"?


776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.


Geeze folks, this is not rocket science nor is it a complicated case, even if you disagree with the law that is not the point and hence the defense prediction this will be a quick trial and who here disagrees with that prediction.




mnottertail -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 8:42:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

Keep in mind too, the original Jenkins case was 2004, prior to the stand your ground law being passed. Hence why that DCA ruling makes a bigger deal about castle doctrine that no longer exists, as in 2005 the duty to retreat was removed outside the home as well.

So, again, Jenkins is entirely on point about ability to retreat.



We are not talking stand your ground, there is no stand your ground in this case.

This is a self defense case. Stand your ground would get him the chair. Stand your ground gives Martin the edge, and it would be clear murder, prima facie, it was his neigborhood.


http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html



You are just throwing out red herrings (and ones not based in reality). The Jenkins case was brought up to respond to a point about ability to retreat, on which it is exactly on point.

Whether it was a SYG case (it hadn't existed yet) is a distraction.




They had castle doctrine and the ability to retreat was not involved in that decision, and I quoted it, it did not have a bearing on the case, nor was it the reason the conviction was overturned. Not even in it, as I said at the outset, disingenuous asswipe to bring that into this as 'proof' of your spewed horseshit.




Raiikun -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 8:58:14 AM)

The judges outright made a point to say that his knees buckled and he wobbled, and so didn't have an avenue of retreat before the next attack.




Wendel27 -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 8:59:52 AM)

''When I refer to "had much training", that's what I was talking about.''

I'm not certain of the point you're making. No I haven't had thirteen years coaching a martial art. Or trained SWAT teams with memebers of ex special forces for that matter. What i've had is training on how to deal with a fight in a professional manner with a focus on keeping yourself safe primarily and your subject as safe as reasonably possible. When putting that into practice and seeing others experience i've seen that in most situations such training goes out the window very swiftly bar perhaps a few, ingrained, muscle memories. mostly establishing control comes through being stronger and fitter or with the assistance of colleagues. The difference between what I am able to do in a controlled, training, enviroment and in reality is all too often legion. Often because of sound biological and psychological reasons. I'm happy to stick with my statement that the vast majority of fights are determined by whi is the most aggressive and who is the strongest.

I appreciate a master of martial arts with a decade and a half of experience may have different experiences you are the exception rather than the rule...and even with that caveat i've seen people trained to very high standards get into very large amounts of trouble with people who have no training whatsoever.




truckinslave -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 9:30:00 AM)

quote:

I was told that if you suspect you are going to have a problem, get the damn gun out.


I don't know who the fuck taught your class- or, more importantly, where; but in WV you just committed the crime of brandishing.




mnottertail -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 9:49:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

The judges outright made a point to say that his knees buckled and he wobbled, and so didn't have an avenue of retreat before the next attack.



There is a vast difference in obiter dicta and ratio decidendi. You should learn it.

It was pointed out at the outset that he did not have any need to retreat, let alone exhaustively.

It is meaningless in this case at present. It indicates nothing.





RacerJim -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 9:54:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim

I realize the HOA settled out of court. Do you realize it's looking more and more like they did so based on a fraudulent/trumped-up charge by the Martin family?


Their kid was followed and died at the hands of their appointed "watch captain".. who was a freakin' tenant no less! he wasnt even a homeowner with skin in the game.. and he was carrying a gun (which from anything I have read is a no-no for all neighborhood watch groups).. They are responsible for letting this nutbar pay local sheriff & giving him the authority to do so.. He followed the kid when real neighborhood watch people are told not to do that, just to report & let the legal pros (real cops) deal with suspicious activities/people.. they were cheap and saw this as an easy way to provide security when they should have paid for a 24/7 guard at the gate and/or a real and professionally trained security guard (whose company has liability insurance).. The HOA would have had its own lawyers, their insurance company and its lawyers decide to settle out of court and they would not have done that if it wasnt in their interests to settle.. The HOA was stupid, cheap and lazy.. and that is how they paid for that mistake..

Just sayin'..

Thus far, all the evidence and testimony presented at Zimmerman's trial indicates their kid died because of what he did. The HOA was indeed stupid, coerced by racist pressure into settling prematurely (before Zimmerman was found guilty of murder).




farglebargle -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 10:03:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Exactly, and you took the quote out of context, read the fucking thing. There was no ability to retreat (nor necessity to do so under the law) because he was AT HOME and the guy CAME THERE. As was said, where was he going to go?


It was outside in a common drive area between homes. The reason given for inability to retreat was being wobbly and weak kneed.


Too bad for Zimmerman he had a neurological evaluation immediately following the killing, proving that there were no worries about any damage.

quote:

I didn’t know the names of the street.


Yeah. He's the 'neighborhood watch captain' in a gated community WITH 3 STREETS, and we're supposed to believe that?




truckinslave -> RE: Zimmerman Trial - LIVE (7/1/2013 10:08:56 AM)

quote:

Too bad for Zimmerman he had a neurological evaluation immediately following the killing, proving that there were no worries about any damage.


Zimmerman had a neurological evaluation immediately following the assault, proving to his vast relief he had taken action before any permanent damage had occurred.

Fixed it for you.




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