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RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 6/29/2013 11:10:58 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:

ORIGINAL: MAINEiacMISTRESS
And ultimately the penis-wielding fuckers who CAUSED the pregnancy in the first place.

Let me see if I've got this right: your reproductive health is men's business?

Me, I use condoms, but if I were a woman, I'd be taking responsibility for my own nethers, not leaving it to a man I let visit them.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


Yep. Spot-on Aswad!!!

ETA: Oh, and just an aside, if the women didn't open their legs to the nearest prick that presents itself, they wouldn't get pregnant either!
So don't always blame the guy!!!


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama
Since God punishes women who have abortions and the doctors who perform them, punishment does not need to be codified here on Earth. Duh.

And what about those who aren't religious zealots and don't believe in god??
What then. Huh???

What a load of tosh!!

< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 6/29/2013 11:16:27 AM >

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RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 6/29/2013 11:11:05 AM   
BitYakin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

What anti-abortion demonstrators said when asked what the punishment should be for women who got abortions if abortion became illegal.


I enjoyed that. 'I have no knee-jerk answer, so I have nothing to say'. Brilliant!


soo what you are saying is you PREFER a knee jerk answer to give me time to THINK ABOUT IT?

(in reply to PeonForHer)
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RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 6/29/2013 11:18:49 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

oo what you are saying is you PREFER a knee jerk answer to give me time to THINK ABOUT IT?

The interviewer asked a number of respondents how long they'd been active in the antiabortion movement, and I think the shortest answer was two years. Is that really not time enough to decide whether "murder" should carry a criminal penalty?

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RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 6/29/2013 11:30:21 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

What anti-abortion demonstrators said when asked what the punishment should be for women who got abortions if abortion became illegal.


I enjoyed that. 'I have no knee-jerk answer, so I have nothing to say'. Brilliant!


soo what you are saying is you PREFER a knee jerk answer to give me time to THINK ABOUT IT?



How much time do you need, BY? Some of those pro-life demonstrators had been campaigning for two, three, five years . . . .

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RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 6/29/2013 11:47:06 AM   
kalikshama


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Status: offline 		One usually doesn't jump right into campaigning either. For example, I voted for a long time before I started volunteering for political candidates.

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RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 6/29/2013 1:14:06 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Truth is, no one knows what they would do until they are actually having to face that decision.

For example, Santorum and his wife.

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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 6/29/2013 1:23:51 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		So in that case (pace the OP), perhaps lying godbothering cunts should refrain from issuing witless generalisations they don't have the wit or the experience to make a judgment call on, rather than using the issue as an excuse to fawn to one group of fuckwits while trying to dodge any consequences or comeback from the rest of the human race?

< Message edited by Moonhead -- 6/29/2013 1:24:07 PM >

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RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 6/29/2013 1:53:29 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

The question is abject and leads to nothing more then supporting christian zealots.

There is no circumstance described what so ever. So it's impossible to say yes.

Is it murder when the mothers life is in threat?
Is it murder when the child is of a mentally ill rapist?
And so on.
Why would you pose a question like that and what is your agenda?

It's with these questions the person who asks already seems to have made up their mind and tries to trick an opponent to go against it's own moral.
A well tested form of passive manipulation.

To say only abject, you leave out the subject of that adjective. What you have is like saying the question is emotionally, or the question is coldly, or pick any adjective.

I am thinking one correct way of making your point would be to suggest the question is abstract, i.e., disassociated from reality because according to our current law...abortion is not murder.

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RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 6/29/2013 4:21:47 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Yep. Spot-on Aswad!!!


You seem to be interpreting me as saying something I didn't say, and it's doing me (and my views) no favors.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 6/29/2013 4:45:51 PM   
PeonForHer


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< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 6/29/2013 4:49:14 PM >

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RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 6/29/2013 5:00:15 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

I am thinking one correct way of making your point would be to suggest the question is abstract, i.e., disassociated from reality because according to our current law...abortion is not murder.

I realize abortion is not murder under our current laws. That's why the first word in the thread title is "If."

But there are folks throughout the country arguing that it is murder and ought to be recriminalized. That raises the question of what penalty these folks would prescribe.

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RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 6/29/2013 5:07:02 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

One usually doesn't jump right into campaigning either. For example, I voted for a long time before I started volunteering for political candidates.



So far as I can see, from their position, killing a foetus, as happens in an abortion, is murder. So, presumably, murder of a foetus requires the exact same punishment as it would for murder of an adult: the death penalty in some states; long--term imprisonment in others. Perhaps even worse, though, considering that the foetus is an innocent and, on some accounts, the killing of same is even more of a sin in God's eyes than the killing of an adult.

On the other hand, one could say that the murder of a foetus is punishable by God alone. It's between the mother (and her 'accomplices' - the aborting doctor, the father - of course, her supportive friends and relations, etc) and God. But, in which case, isn't the murder of an adult by another adult, by the same token, between God and the murderer, and nothing to do with the rest of us humans? Are anti-abortionists also keen to argue that no human has the right to punish another human for murder - that the punishing of any human for such a crime is down to God, alone?

Alternatively, one could argue that the murder of an unborn baby isn't as evil as the murder of an adult, somehow - and this is why the mother doesn't deserve to go to prison for it, much less face execution. But if murder of an unborn baby isn't as evil - then how much less evil is it? And why is it less evil - what is the moral basis for considering it less evil?



< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 6/29/2013 5:08:06 PM >

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RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 6/30/2013 5:12:56 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Another thread brought to mind a question CNN's Bernard Shaw posed to George H.W. Bush in a 1988 presidential debate:

If abortion is murder and we execute murderers, should we execute women who abort?

Not surprisingly, Bush dodged the question, and I've waited ever since for a straight answer from anyone.

So what do you all think? Shall we fry murdering Moms? If not, why not? And, just to spice things up, how 'bout the doctors?



Just for clarification, I wanted to find out what was the penalty for abortion when it was illegal. Apparently, the law in Texas called for 2 to 5 years imprisonment.

quote:

Punishment for procuring an abortion
Article 1191 set forth a punishment of two to five years' imprisonment for "any person" who would "procure an abortion" for a pregnant woman by:

"designedly administer[ing] ... any drug or medicine"
"knowingly procur[ing] to be administered ... any drug or medicine"
using "towards her any violence or means whatever externally or internally applied"
The penalty would double "if it be done without her consent".

Accomplice liability
Article 1192 set forth accomplice liability for any person who "furnishes the means for procuring an abortion knowing the purpose intended".

Punishment for attempting to procure an abortion
Article 1193 set forth a fine of $100-$1,000 for a person who engages in means "calculated to produce" an abortion but that fail to do so.

Death of mother is murder
Article 1194 set forth that, "if the death of the mother is occasioned" by an abortion or attempted abortion, "it is murder."

Exception: Medical advice intended to save the mother's life
Article 1196 carved out an exception for an abortion "procured or attempted by medical advice for the purpose of saving the life of the mother."


The statute seems to make a distinction between abortion and murder itself, as well as a distinction between fetal life and life "in existence by actual birth." So, it seems that even under the older statutes, abortion was never actually classified as "homicide."

I never really thought of abortion as homicide. If anything, it might be considered a vicarious form of doctor-assisted suicide.


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RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 6/30/2013 7:38:10 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
So far as I can see, from their position, killing a foetus, as happens in an abortion, is murder. So, presumably, murder of a foetus requires the exact same punishment as it would for murder of an adult: the death penalty in some states; long--term imprisonment in others.

Maybe they could claim the stand your ground defence to justify an abortion in Florida, if medical evidence suggests that carrying the foetus to term would harm the mother?

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RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 6/30/2013 12:00:58 PM   
tazzygirl


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Just to keep everyone on historical point, everyone is aware that abortion was not always illegal, yes?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 6/30/2013 12:44:55 PM   
Moonhead


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Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		I am well aware of this fact, but then I'm not an American, so I know some history.


_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 6/30/2013 12:47:49 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

I'm not an American, so I know some history.

Societies whose best days are behind them probably do have a stronger sense of history than we upstart Americans do.

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No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

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INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 6/30/2013 12:49:45 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Those laws were changed base upon two issues....

1) "Child bed fever". At the time, no one knew what caused it, or how to stop it. Abortions were causing many deaths due to infections.

2) religious reasons.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 6/30/2013 12:52:53 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I'm not an American, so I know some history.

Societies whose best days are behind them probably do have a stronger sense of history than we upstart Americans do.

You upstarts have been on the way down for the last quarter of a century. Probably time to change that story, innit?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: If abortion is murder . . . - 6/30/2013 12:55:38 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

You upstarts have been on the way down for the last quarter of a century. Probably time to change that story, innit?

We'll see.

Meantime, I'm gonna stop hijacking my own thread.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 40
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