Trouble with the EU

Trouble with the EU (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> Trouble with the EU (6/30/2013 1:28:24 PM)
EU politicians demand probe into US bugging US security agency spied on EU computer networks in Washington and at UN, according to German magazine Der Spiegel. Senior European Union politicians say they are shocked at reports that United States intelligence agents bugged EU offices on both sides of the Atlantic. The president of the European Parliament, Martin Schulz, said he was "deeply worried and shocked about the allegations of U.S. authorities spying on EU offices'' made in a report published Sunday by German news weekly Der Spiegel. Schulz said if the reports were confirmed "it would be an extremely serious matter which will have a severe impact on EU-US relations". "On behalf of the European Parliament, I demand full clarification and require further information speedily from the US authorities with regard to these allegations," he said in an emailed statement. German Green Party leaders in the European Parliament, Rebecca Harms and Daniel Cohn-Bendit, called for an investigation and called for existing US-EU agreements on the exchange of bank transfer and passenger record information to be cancelled. Der Spiegel's article quoted a September 2010 "top secret" document that outlined how the National Security Agency bugged offices and spied on EU internal computer networks in Washington and at the United Nations, not only listening to conversations and phone calls, but also gaining access to documents and emails. The document, which was leaked by whistleblower Edward Snowden, explicitly called the EU a "target". http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2013/06/201363014518693187.html The hits keep coming.

Missdressed -> RE: Trouble with the EU (6/30/2013 1:37:21 PM)
Anyone who didn't think ALL governments were doing this needs a serious reality check.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Trouble with the EU (6/30/2013 1:49:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Missdressed Anyone who didn't think ALL governments were doing this needs a serious reality check. Yep, they all do it. It just depends on how much of their activity they get caught out on! That, I suspect, is the main reason the US want Snowden so badly. It's nothing to do with terrorism or National Security - that's a red herring, a cover story. What they are afraid of is how much of their illicit spying is going to be exposed to everyone else in the world. [:D]

kdsub -> RE: Trouble with the EU (6/30/2013 1:49:30 PM)
Not at all tizzy... I can hear it now... "Nope he is full of shit"...in so many politically correct words and structure...and after that.. . if you don't believe us prove it. Butch

DomKen -> RE: Trouble with the EU (6/30/2013 1:57:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 What they are afraid of is how much of their illicit spying is going to be exposed to everyone else in the world. [:D] I'm guessing the extent of our spying is not the problem, everybody with the means spies on everybody else, but that Snowden might reveal details of how which could lead to effective countermeasures.

Aswad -> RE: Trouble with the EU (6/30/2013 3:17:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Missdressed Anyone who didn't think ALL governments were doing this needs a serious reality check. You're missing the point. I realize that the US is comfortable with waging war first and asking questions later. Here in Europe, we prefer to wait until we have actual proof of what we suspect before acting on it. More to the point, several different treaties and organizations require some degree of proof before they will allow sanctions. This is now actionable. IWYW, — Aswad.

DomKen -> RE: Trouble with the EU (6/30/2013 3:20:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: Missdressed Anyone who didn't think ALL governments were doing this needs a serious reality check. You're missing the point. I realize that the US is comfortable with waging war first and asking questions later. Here in Europe, we prefer to wait until we have actual proof of what we suspect before acting on it. More to the point, several different treaties and organizations require some degree of proof before they will allow sanctions. This is now actionable. IWYW, — Aswad. No. It is not. Any government of any consequence who starts down that route will very swiftly have their spying outed.

Missdressed -> RE: Trouble with the EU (6/30/2013 8:55:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: Missdressed Anyone who didn't think ALL governments were doing this needs a serious reality check. You're missing the point. I realize that the US is comfortable with waging war first and asking questions later. Here in Europe, we prefer to wait until we have actual proof of what we suspect before acting on it. More to the point, several different treaties and organizations require some degree of proof before they will allow sanctions. This is now actionable. IWYW, — Aswad. No. It is not. Any government of any consequence who starts down that route will very swiftly have their spying outed. I'm sorry to disagree. But I do. I studied this as part of my law degree and have a special interest in it, and I learnt things that opened my eyes. I am going on to further study in this area and hope to specialise in it. It was ever thus. And it will ever be thus. Governments of all flavours spy in lots of ways, which if they were outside the arena of spying would be illegal. Internet and email surveillance is no different. Edited coz I sounded like a know it all prat.

Edwynn -> RE: Trouble with the EU (6/30/2013 11:08:55 PM)
No, you're just more knowledgeable in the matter than people who rely on the highlighted media blurbs for all their info. No need to apologize for that. How anyone (yes, even Europeans) could think that every country with the capability doesn't in some way monitor any and every bit of data of any sort crossing their borders is beyond me. Plenty of books written on the subject in the sixties and seventies already removed the mystery or any question on the matter. That is, for those who actually bother to read them. What I find amusing is that some of the people on this forum who ridiculed those who took issue with grandma being strip searched at the airport (which had everything to do with pork to the company making the 'I can see through your bra and panties' machines, and nothing to do with security) are the same who start posts to vent their righteous indignation at this 'atrocity.' And that all these 'community watchdogs' in any case seem to be blythey unaware that the phone companies, the internet, the search engine companies, the browsers, the servers, the vendors, the 'social network' sites, etc. not only track everything you do, but make a ton of money off of it. Perhaps if the NSA or CIA (or MI6, or the Mossad, etc.) sold all this information to advertizers, or if they strip searched your or a friend's grandmother in the process, we might assume it would be more acceptable.

Missdressed -> RE: Trouble with the EU (6/30/2013 11:22:27 PM)
The way I see it, all governments spy. Even the European governments. They tap phones. They monitor old fashioned communications. They send agents to countries they just don't like and those agents go in under false identities. With false cover stories. And they do the bidding of their masters and blow stuff up, destroy infrastructure and generally make a nuisance of themselves. And if this wasn't happening in the arena of spying it would be illegal. It is actually illegal, just everyone knows everyone does it. If that makes sense. The Internet and data traffic is the same. Everyone is monitoring everything - look at the hoo ha over bt and phorm. You think they have that technology and they aren't using it? Damn sure they're using it. The British govt backed off from prosecuting phorm over two years ago. I wonder why they might have done that ..... Call me cynical if you like.

tazzygirl -> RE: Trouble with the EU (6/30/2013 11:27:40 PM)
I posted this because I had a friend in another country who was concerned. I can see why. I also pointed out to him that spying is a governmental way of life, for all governments. Why the article takes the leap at considering the EU trade agreements would take a hit, Im still trying to work out. Its not like this is the first time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_listening_device#Examples_of_use That doesnt make it "right", but it does make it "business as usual". Anyone have any idea why Schulz or the others are calling for such drastic measures... or is this just politics as usual without any real meaning?

DaddySatyr -> RE: Trouble with the EU (6/30/2013 11:29:49 PM)
I believe that there are probably a number of governments that don't put a whole lot of effort into spying. I think there's a few reasons: 1) They really aren't all that interested in being involved in the general bullshit that's going on in the world. B) They concentrate their spying acxtivities into very specific things. 3) They receive (and believe) data that they get from other countries spying *for* them. Peace and comfort, Michael

Missdressed -> RE: Trouble with the EU (6/30/2013 11:38:28 PM)
I think, as well, and sorry for not being clearer sooner, that Schultz has robe seen to be saying what he said. That's his job. Presumably they reckon other data might piggy back the legit transfers? I assume anyway. Since there's a transfer happening it would be very very easy to piggy back it, or it could just be privacy concerns around the information itself - bank accounts and personal data?

Missdressed -> RE: Trouble with the EU (7/1/2013 12:24:44 AM)
I'm actually bowing out of this thread now. Interesting though it is, if I stayed I'd end up sounding like a patronising twat as I quoted academic articles and pieces of legislation. So I think it better to retreat with grace ;)

Edwynn -> RE: Trouble with the EU (7/1/2013 1:26:00 AM)
I don't mind EU taking a swipe at US 'intervention' in their affairs in this way, but I can guarantee you that most or all of the security agencies in Europe are wishing that Schulz would shut up. This reminds me of the US and British and German attacks on little countries like Switzerland and Luxembourg and Austria and Liechtenstein for their alleged accommodation of tax evaders. (Maybe this is Schulz's indirect way of striking back on that? Who knows.) When Germany stands up to the countries with the most extensive tax haven territories (UK and US) then I'll take their concerns seriously. The UK and US should just STFU on that matter, period.

MrBukani -> RE: Trouble with the EU (7/1/2013 2:10:46 AM)
It's like little kids tellin a 'secret' and saying don't tell. I don't think anyone sane is outraged at all. But since snowden made it public it's now on a need to know basis what is really goin on. And yes all countries 'tap'. Holland is known for doing the most phonetaps in the world. Political outrage is a media trained tactic. Kinda hard to say, oh we all knew the secret things goin on. So to say it does anything bad to EU/US relations is just play to get the info they(EU) want faster. Nothing more or less.

Powergamz1 -> RE: Trouble with the EU (7/1/2013 2:38:48 AM)
And how do 'we' get actual proof before acting on those suspicions? Wait for the other country to put it up on a billboard? Or espionage? And how exactly, did the information that has so outraged the EU get into their hands? Oh, right... espionage, again. quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: Missdressed Anyone who didn't think ALL governments were doing this needs a serious reality check. You're missing the point. I realize that the US is comfortable with waging war first and asking questions later. Here in Europe, we prefer to wait until we have actual proof of what we suspect before acting on it. More to the point, several different treaties and organizations require some degree of proof before they will allow sanctions. This is now actionable. IWYW, — Aswad.

Politesub53 -> RE: Trouble with the EU (7/1/2013 4:05:44 AM)
A leak doesnt equal espionage. That said, I doubt if any European intelligence agencies were unaware this was going on.

Zonie63 -> RE: Trouble with the EU (7/1/2013 7:33:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn What I find amusing is that some of the people on this forum who ridiculed those who took issue with grandma being strip searched at the airport (which had everything to do with pork to the company making the 'I can see through your bra and panties' machines, and nothing to do with security) are the same who start posts to vent their righteous indignation at this 'atrocity.' And that all these 'community watchdogs' in any case seem to be blythey unaware that the phone companies, the internet, the search engine companies, the browsers, the servers, the vendors, the 'social network' sites, etc. not only track everything you do, but make a ton of money off of it. Perhaps if the NSA or CIA (or MI6, or the Mossad, etc.) sold all this information to advertizers, or if they strip searched your or a friend's grandmother in the process, we might assume it would be more acceptable. I've been through one of those "I can see you" x-ray machines at the airport. Not everyone had to go through it; they were just picking people at random, so I was one of the lucky ones. Maybe the TSA workers wanted a cheap thrill. I've never been all that concerned about this on a personal level. I accept that the government spies on people, both foreign and domestic, as well as corporate spying, independent hackers, and just plain nosy neighbors. (It's the nosy neighbors who actually bug me the most.) But the bigger problem is in what government employees are actually doing with the information? Of course, we can concede that there is always spying and that's what governments do. But what if they find information that's not incriminating or a national security threat, but damaging nonetheless? What if the government finds evidence that a major CEO cheating on his wife, and goes to him and says, "Either play ball with us, or we send this evidence to your wife"? What if it's used for political reasons, to discredit political dissent? Hoover hounded MLK and others for a long time.

Missdressed -> RE: Trouble with the EU (7/1/2013 8:01:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn What I find amusing is that some of the people on this forum who ridiculed those who took issue with grandma being strip searched at the airport (which had everything to do with pork to the company making the 'I can see through your bra and panties' machines, and nothing to do with security) are the same who start posts to vent their righteous indignation at this 'atrocity.' And that all these 'community watchdogs' in any case seem to be blythey unaware that the phone companies, the internet, the search engine companies, the browsers, the servers, the vendors, the 'social network' sites, etc. not only track everything you do, but make a ton of money off of it. Perhaps if the NSA or CIA (or MI6, or the Mossad, etc.) sold all this information to advertizers, or if they strip searched your or a friend's grandmother in the process, we might assume it would be more acceptable. I've been through one of those "I can see you" x-ray machines at the airport. Not everyone had to go through it; they were just picking people at random, so I was one of the lucky ones. Maybe the TSA workers wanted a cheap thrill. I've never been all that concerned about this on a personal level. I accept that the government spies on people, both foreign and domestic, as well as corporate spying, independent hackers, and just plain nosy neighbors. (It's the nosy neighbors who actually bug me the most.) But the bigger problem is in what government employees are actually doing with the information? Of course, we can concede that there is always spying and that's what governments do. But what if they find information that's not incriminating or a national security threat, but damaging nonetheless? What if the government finds evidence that a major CEO cheating on his wife, and goes to him and says, "Either play ball with us, or we send this evidence to your wife"? What if it's used for political reasons, to discredit political dissent? Hoover hounded MLK and others for a long time. And you don't think they're doing that already? Leaning on CEO's I mean?

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