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RE: Trouble with the EU - 7/1/2013 4:09:48 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

That doesnt make it "right", but it does make it "business as usual".


Lots of things are business as usual without consequences. Everybody knows, that's how it goes. Consequences come into it when what goes is proven. We all know a huge number of professional athletes do drugs. But we slap them for it when there is actual proof. Lance Armstrong can say all his colleagues did what he did, and that will end up contributing to what we all believe we know, but it won't automatically be actionable.

When things break the surface, become actionable, that's when one can do something about it.

And I'm guessing the main things they're peeved at are (a) their citizens were spied on by another nation, and (b) they weren't in on the collaboration. Bear in mind that the US, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand are the partners of interest here. Germany, for instance, wasn't in on it (whether from lack of invitation or from a choice not to participate), and so they're naturally not going to be best pleased to be on the receiving end with no payoff.

Also, as DaddySatyr pointed out, not all nations choose to have the scope that the US gives its espionage.

It's well beyond anything justified by necessity.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Trouble with the EU - 7/1/2013 5:52:34 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missdressed

Anyone who didn't think ALL governments were doing this needs a serious reality check.


You're missing the point.

I realize that the US is comfortable with waging war first and asking questions later.

Here in Europe, we prefer to wait until we have actual proof of what we suspect before acting on it.

More to the point, several different treaties and organizations require some degree of proof before they will allow sanctions.

This is now actionable.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

No. It is not. Any government of any consequence who starts down that route will very swiftly have their spying outed.

I see lots of very possible 'action.' Here

You see Here the struggle it is to become like Nazis when dealing with those who have real life experiences actually dealing with them. I'd be sending a whole lot of Americans home if it were up to me.

Then develop a huge thick electronic wall to prevent any exposure they can. Maybe it will take the Europeans to teach America the real rule of law and the presumption of innocence.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Trouble with the EU - 7/1/2013 7:22:53 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		So this information just leaked itself? No deliberate human actions illegally obtained and turned over (AKA 'espionage') any of it?

That's fantastic.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

A leak doesnt equal espionage. That said, I doubt if any European intelligence agencies were unaware this was going on.



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Trouble with the EU - 7/2/2013 3:40:10 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

So this information just leaked itself? No deliberate human actions illegally obtained and turned over (AKA 'espionage') any of it?

That's fantastic.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

A leak doesnt equal espionage. That said, I doubt if any European intelligence agencies were unaware this was going on.




No brains.....espionage is spying. Snowden did no such thing, he just decided to blow the whistle.

You not knowing the difference, now that`s fantastic.

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Trouble with the EU - 7/2/2013 7:35:10 AM   
egern


Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Missdressed

Anyone who didn't think ALL governments were doing this needs a serious reality check.


Anyone who thinks ALL goverments are doing this needs a serious reality chech.

(in reply to Missdressed)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Trouble with the EU - 7/2/2013 7:40:09 AM   
egern


Posts: 537
Joined: 1/11/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


No, you're just more knowledgeable in the matter than people who rely on the highlighted media blurbs for all their info.

No need to apologize for that.

How anyone (yes, even Europeans) could think that every country with the capability doesn't in some way monitor any and every bit of data of any sort crossing their borders is beyond me. Plenty of books written on the subject in the sixties and seventies already removed the mystery or any question on the matter.

That is, for those who actually bother to read them.

What I find amusing is that some of the people on this forum who ridiculed those who took issue with grandma being strip searched at the airport (which had everything to do with pork to the company making the 'I can see through your bra and panties' machines, and nothing to do with security) are the same who start posts to vent their righteous indignation at this 'atrocity.' And that all these 'community watchdogs' in any case seem to be blythey unaware that the phone companies, the internet, the search engine companies, the browsers, the servers, the vendors, the 'social network' sites, etc. not only track everything you do, but make a ton of money off of it.

Perhaps if the NSA or CIA (or MI6, or the Mossad, etc.) sold all this information to advertizers, or if they strip searched your or a friend's grandmother in the process, we might assume it would be more acceptable.



What you are saying is that we should all sit on our little bottoms and put up with it, and those who try to fight should be ridiculed.

I have seen this attitude so often, and wish that people who don't have the balls to fight will at least shut up and let others do their fighting for them - in peace, as it were..

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Trouble with the EU - 7/2/2013 7:51:22 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

I see lots of very possible 'action.' Here

You see Here the struggle it is to become like Nazis when dealing with those who have real life experiences actually dealing with them. I'd be sending a whole lot of Americans home if it were up to me.

Then develop a huge thick electronic wall to prevent any exposure they can. Maybe it will take the Europeans to teach America the real rule of law and the presumption of innocence.

Don't be absurd. Every nation with the means spies on everybody else. The real powers not loud mouths in a parliament know that and accept it. Calling the passive gathering of a lot of data so they can glean out the stuff they want is like the STASI how precisely? The STASI used an immense network of paid informants to spy on their own people's every day activities which numerous documents in the leaks and from else where show is not happening with the NSA.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Trouble with the EU - 7/2/2013 7:52:55 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: egern


quote:

ORIGINAL: Missdressed

Anyone who didn't think ALL governments were doing this needs a serious reality check.


Anyone who thinks ALL goverments are doing this needs a serious reality chech.

Every government with the financial means does. Maybe some of the piss pot nearly failed states of the third world do not have a functioning intelligence service but all the rest do.

(in reply to egern)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Trouble with the EU - 7/2/2013 8:46:24 AM   
Missdressed


Posts: 278
Joined: 5/28/2013
From: UK
Status: offline 		There isn't a country I can think of, including the piss poor third world states, that doesn't have an intelligence service of some form.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Trouble with the EU - 7/2/2013 8:49:13 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Missdressed

There isn't a country I can think of, including the piss poor third world states, that doesn't have an intelligence service of some form.

The only one I can think of is Somalia as they don't even have a functioning central government.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to Missdressed)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Trouble with the EU - 7/2/2013 8:53:31 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: egern


quote:

ORIGINAL: Missdressed

Anyone who didn't think ALL governments were doing this needs a serious reality check.


Anyone who thinks ALL goverments are doing this needs a serious reality chech.


Why? Italy did it.

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/may/29/world/fg-rendition29

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to egern)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Trouble with the EU - 7/2/2013 3:02:06 PM   
Edwynn


Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: egern


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


No, you're just more knowledgeable in the matter than people who rely on the highlighted media blurbs for all their info.

No need to apologize for that.

How anyone (yes, even Europeans) could think that every country with the capability doesn't in some way monitor any and every bit of data of any sort crossing their borders is beyond me. Plenty of books written on the subject in the sixties and seventies already removed the mystery or any question on the matter.

That is, for those who actually bother to read them.

What I find amusing is that some of the people on this forum who ridiculed those who took issue with grandma being strip searched at the airport (which had everything to do with pork to the company making the 'I can see through your bra and panties' machines, and nothing to do with security) are the same who start posts to vent their righteous indignation at this 'atrocity.' And that all these 'community watchdogs' in any case seem to be blythey unaware that the phone companies, the internet, the search engine companies, the browsers, the servers, the vendors, the 'social network' sites, etc. not only track everything you do, but make a ton of money off of it.

Perhaps if the NSA or CIA (or MI6, or the Mossad, etc.) sold all this information to advertizers, or if they strip searched your or a friend's grandmother in the process, we might assume it would be more acceptable.



What you are saying is that we should all sit on our little bottoms and put up with it, and those who try to fight should be ridiculed.

I have seen this attitude so often, and wish that people who don't have the balls to fight will at least shut up and let others do their fighting for them - in peace, as it were..




Get a clue.

If the phone companies and internet browsers and and a multitude of websites and 'MyFace' and 'SpaceBook' [intentional misspellings] and the credit agencies etc. were not tracking and recording everything you do, and all making a bundle in the process, then the spy agencies would have no records to 'ask' for, would they?

You and your ilk have been "sitting on your little bottoms" on that issue with hardly a complaint at all. All that 'internet freedom!' theft of music and movies got you by the balls on that one.

Unlike you, if I find objection to my life being intruded upon, I'm not so likely to let the commercial mongers slide, and then show my 'righteous indignation!' stance when the government does noticeably less for at least putatively better purpose.

Lot's of things to pick on here, no question. But I prefer to listen to objections from people who understand the whole situation.







< Message edited by Edwynn -- 7/2/2013 3:36:09 PM >

(in reply to egern)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Trouble with the EU - 7/2/2013 3:15:29 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
...But I prefer to listen to objections from people who understand the whole situation.

Does anybody really understand 'the whole situation'???

I sincerely doubt that any one agency or country have even half the situation let alone understand it.

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Trouble with the EU - 7/2/2013 3:26:16 PM   
Edwynn


Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline

I don't disagree. But this harangue against the spy agencies for 'taking' what people 'give' to commercial interests on a daily basis is just silly.

Tell me how much you (rhetorically) fight against the 'machine' if you want any cred for objections to what the government is doing.


That's all I'm saying.




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 7/2/2013 3:30:21 PM >

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Trouble with the EU - 7/2/2013 4:52:35 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Blow the whistle on what? Information that he just found laying around in the corner grocery?

Here's something that may clarify: Espionage - "...individual obtaining information considered secret or confidential without the permission of the holder of the information."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage

Since we have your sacred word that no such activity ever took place, feel free to back up your assertion by explaining exactly how the information came into the public awareness.

Or don't, your choice.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

So this information just leaked itself? No deliberate human actions illegally obtained and turned over (AKA 'espionage') any of it?

That's fantastic.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

A leak doesnt equal espionage. That said, I doubt if any European intelligence agencies were unaware this was going on.




No brains.....espionage is spying. Snowden did no such thing, he just decided to blow the whistle.

You not knowing the difference, now that`s fantastic.



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Trouble with the EU - 7/2/2013 5:13:22 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Blow the whistle on what? Information that he just found laying around in the corner grocery?

Here's something that may clarify: Espionage - "...individual obtaining information considered secret or confidential without the permission of the holder of the information."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage

Since we have your sacred word that no such activity ever took place, feel free to back up your assertion by explaining exactly how the information came into the public awareness.

Or don't, your choice.



Espionage or spying involves a government or individual obtaining information considered secret or confidential without the permission of the holder of the information.

If you are going to post from Wiki, at least have the balls to post the whole sentence so as to keep it in context.

Your being silly again. Snowden already had the information, with the permission of his employers. That isnt espionage no matter how many times you say otherwise. Of course, the US agencies have to use words like spy and espionage as whistleblowing, doesnt sound quite so serious.

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Trouble with the EU - 7/2/2013 6:22:04 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Blow the whistle on what? Information that he just found laying around in the corner grocery?

Here's something that may clarify: Espionage - "...individual obtaining information considered secret or confidential without the permission of the holder of the information."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage

Since we have your sacred word that no such activity ever took place, feel free to back up your assertion by explaining exactly how the information came into the public awareness.

Or don't, your choice.



Espionage or spying involves a government or individual obtaining information considered secret or confidential without the permission of the holder of the information.

If you are going to post from Wiki, at least have the balls to post the whole sentence so as to keep it in context.

Your being silly again. Snowden already had the information, with the permission of his employers. That isnt espionage no matter how many times you say otherwise. Of course, the US agencies have to use words like spy and espionage as whistleblowing, doesnt sound quite so serious.

It certainly is espionage.

If a spy goes to work for a rival and gains access to sensitive data by being given it as part of his work and gives that data to his patron that is called espionage.

Snowden says he took the job with the NSA contractor specifically to get sensitive information to take. That he made it public rather than doing so for a patron is irrelevant.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Trouble with the EU - 7/2/2013 9:27:53 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Missdressed

There isn't a country I can think of, including the piss poor third world states, that doesn't have an intelligence service of some form.


I can comment very generally about the Norwegian intelligence services.

There are two primary branches, of course, as in most nations: domestic and foreign.

The foreign intelligence service is involved in tracking specific target groups, and monitoring generalities in regions of interest, to a level of detail appropriate to our interest. We do not perform blank check collection for this, and I would not characterize what the NSA and CIA have done as being representative of what we do. There is some sensitivity to other countries' territorial sovereignty in peace time, and a distinction is made between legitimate collection and blank check collection.

I cannot comment on specific countries or activities that aren't already a matter of public record.

The domestic one does perform nearly blank check collection on domestic data, to a greater extent than is done in the USA. But this was done in a fully above board manner, with transparency. I'm not pleased with it in any way, and it appears to be in violation of the constitution, but the matter is transparent. We have mass surveillance of our own citizens, and this data is analyzed, pretty much all of it. This is well known, and was debated in the media prior to enacting it. Evidence gathered in this way isn't generally admissible in a court of law, but when police operations are undertaken on those grounds, any evidence uncovered in the course of the police operation is admissible.

Yes, we have intelligence services. No, we don't cast an infinitely wide net outside our own territories.

Also, crucially, we haven't defined "cyber" attacks as acts of war and then proceeded to commit them on a routine basis against countries we aren't at war with, and particularly not without oversight by a body that is authorized to commit acts of war. "Cyber" attacks against any other countries are carried out by the military, not a civilian body, and on terms that are symmetrical (i.e. the same standards apply to us as to others). The US fails abysmally on this point, and should be the last nation on Earth to complain about foreign industrial espionage or foreign intelligence activities.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Missdressed)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Trouble with the EU - 7/2/2013 10:52:29 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		You are right, it probably was silly of me to expect any actual proof of that assertion to be posted.

Still one can always hope for a first.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Blow the whistle on what? Information that he just found laying around in the corner grocery?

Here's something that may clarify: Espionage - "...individual obtaining information considered secret or confidential without the permission of the holder of the information."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage

Since we have your sacred word that no such activity ever took place, feel free to back up your assertion by explaining exactly how the information came into the public awareness.

Or don't, your choice.



Espionage or spying involves a government or individual obtaining information considered secret or confidential without the permission of the holder of the information.

If you are going to post from Wiki, at least have the balls to post the whole sentence so as to keep it in context.

Your being silly again. Snowden already had the information, with the permission of his employers. That isnt espionage no matter how many times you say otherwise. Of course, the US agencies have to use words like spy and espionage as whistleblowing, doesnt sound quite so serious.



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Trouble with the EU - 7/3/2013 4:39:04 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

You are right,


And finally, so are you.

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 40
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