RE: all about you?

RE: all about you? (Full Version)

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Caretakr -> RE: all about you? (6/27/2006 12:13:04 PM)
I would rather accept one valid criticism of myself that sends me on the road to heaven-than ten thousand agreements that lead me to hell.

crouchingtigress -> RE: all about you? (6/27/2006 12:13:06 PM)
hell yes and amen[:D] quote: ORIGINAL: MHOO314 quote: ORIGINAL: Caretakr Some threads today made me wonder about so much of the discord that goes on here-the lack of objectivity-ego centrism. I understand personal points of view are all we have to offer. But questions asked are often about things that have nothing to do with us, personally. Why do you think that so many of us have to make it all about us? Is that not the way a baby views the world, as entirely revolving around it? Because we are evolved beings, if we were not, it would be all about the "herd". We are so self focused we can't see that thinking about others really creates a better sense of community.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: all about you? (6/27/2006 12:17:00 PM)
I will also add that we are not taught HOW to discuss things from an objective perspective. We're not taught HOW to say "OK I feel like this...but what he was ASKING was about this." or "OK what she said made me FEEL like this, but are my feelings relevant?" Females especially are taught that we should get along with eachother and in order to do that, we must AGREE. Now, there's nothing wrong with this. I have to admit I tend to like people more if they agree with me and if I agree with them. But we aren't taught to move BEYOND that- to respect and like the person for what they do, not just what we agree with them doing. There are people here I really dislike and really disagree with, but I really can respect who they are and what they choose because of how they project themselves and are able to handle things socially. So if people learned or were taught those intellectual/judgement/good debate skills, I doubt they would fall back on their immediate emotional impulses as much as they do now.

LadyMorgynn -> RE: all about you? (6/27/2006 12:20:35 PM)
Okay, I'll try again. The minute we are born, we are surrounded by people who have expectations of us. Our parents have them. Our brothers and sisters have them. Our teachers have expectations of us. Then we grow up. Our boss and coworkers have expectations of us. Our parents probably still have something to say about our life (oh honey, don't you think your boyfriend should get a haircut?). Significant others, spouses, neighbors, church... everyone has expectations of some kind, sabe? Who are you? Are you who your mother wants to be? Who our father wants us to be? What our minister wants us to be? Society also has norms... you're not supposed to be a mass murderer, for instance, or evade your taxes, or beat your kids.... or even beat the slave at your feet begging you to do so. Society at large determines what is "normal," and in order to step outside that box, in order for us to BE who we are, we have to make our own choice... at some point you have to take a stand and say, this is who I am, even if ("x") doesn't like it, I am sorry but this is who I am. I mean... how many people here have someone in their life/family who either does not approve, or is not comfortable with, your being in this lifestyle? How many people here cannot TELL those in their life about being in this lifestyle? At some point, in order to be Domme/ or sub or slave or switch (or bi or gay or poly, for that matter), you had to put yourself first, and say this IS who I am, in order to be that person. quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin What you said made no sense but it sure explained alot.

Caretakr -> RE: all about you? (6/27/2006 12:23:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross I will also add that we are not taught HOW to discuss things from an objective perspective. We're not taught HOW to say "OK I feel like this...but what he was ASKING was about this." or "OK what she said made me FEEL like this, but are my feelings relevant?" Females especially are taught that we should get along with eachother and in order to do that, we must AGREE. Now, there's nothing wrong with this. I have to admit I tend to like people more if they agree with me and if I agree with them. But we aren't taught to move BEYOND that- to respect and like the person for what they do, not just what we agree with them doing. There are people here I really dislike and really disagree with, but I really can respect who they are and what they choose because of how they project themselves and are able to handle things socially. So if people learned or were taught those intellectual/judgement/good debate skills, I doubt they would fall back on their immediate emotional impulses as much as they do now. A strictly ego centric perspective is a formula for relationship disaster. Perhaps that is why hedonists seem to do so poorly with interpersonal relationships. Without the ability to sacrifice for the good of a connection,it's going to be tenuous at best. I have always felt that if one has a continual series of failures,the most common element-oneself- must be examined and adjusted. But sadly,it seems that many go through life without the innate realization that serving the needs of others serves oneself, in the return.

Caretakr -> RE: all about you? (6/27/2006 12:24:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyMorgynn Okay, I'll try again. The minute we are born, we are surrounded by people who have expectations of us. Our parents have them. Our brothers and sisters have them. Our teachers have expectations of us. Then we grow up. Our boss and coworkers have expectations of us. Our parents probably still have something to say about our life (oh honey, don't you think your boyfriend should get a haircut?). Significant others, spouses, neighbors, church... everyone has expectations of some kind, sabe? Who are you? Are you who your mother wants to be? Who our father wants us to be? What our minister wants us to be? Society also has norms... you're not supposed to be a mass murderer, for instance, or evade your taxes, or beat your kids.... or even beat the slave at your feet begging you to do so. Society at large determines what is "normal," and in order to step outside that box, in order for us to BE who we are, we have to make our own choice... at some point you have to take a stand and say, this is who I am, even if ("x") doesn't like it, I am sorry but this is who I am. I mean... how many people here have someone in their life/family who either does not approve, or is not comfortable with, your being in this lifestyle? How many people here cannot TELL those in their life about being in this lifestyle? At some point, in order to be Domme/ or sub or slave or switch (or bi or gay or poly, for that matter), you had to put yourself first, and say this IS who I am, in order to be that person. quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin What you said made no sense but it sure explained alot. When one moves beyond the need for external validation in viewing the world,you begin to see the world-not merely your own tiny place within it.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: all about you? (6/27/2006 12:26:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Caretakr A strictly ego centric perspective is a formula for relationship disaster. Perhaps that is why hedonists seem to do so poorly with interpersonal relationships. Without the ability to sacrifice for the good of a connection,it's going to be tenuous at best. I have always felt that if one has a continual series of failures,the most common element-oneself- must be examined and adjusted. But sadly,it seems that many go through life without the innate realization that serving the needs of others serves oneself, in the return. People in sub cultures often find themselves there because they don't fit into the mainstream culture- their social skills and preferencs do not mesh with the world at large, for better AND worse. So they already have a few strikes against them. Putting them together in a sub-culture is just asking for trouble. Anyone who has been through a bdsm groups election process, or a sci-fi conventions programming committee knows exactly what I mean. This is not to say that only people in sub cultures lack perspective and skill in looking at things objectively- hardly! But it unfortunately seems a more acute problem in sub-cultures.

zenofeller -> RE: all about you? (6/27/2006 12:28:07 PM)
would you say people should be taught philosophy then, miss socrat..umm, albatross.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: all about you? (6/27/2006 12:30:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zenofeller would you say people should be taught philosophy then, miss socrat..umm, albatross. I think it would be invaluable for that to be mandatory- far better than telling high school kids to spend hours on community service. Teach them how to question and think for themselves, how to question others. A dangerous idea, but I think it's the only one that will work in the end.

LadyMorgynn -> RE: all about you? (6/27/2006 12:31:00 PM)
Not to hijack the thread, but this is exactly what I have observed about satanists, too... the Church of Satan satanists, not the other kind. The emphasis so completely on "me-me-me" with no alleviating compassion for or consideration for others, almost a complete denial of another person's right to have feelings, needs and wants, that life itself becomes a narrow (if eccentric) tunnel... very sad. There's a difference between being "all about me" in the sense of being true to yourself, and being egocentric and selfish. The difference is also very subjective, relative to who it is who's looking! Well, we all know that, don't we? Vanilla folk just don't GET that the submissive is getting anything out of being whipped, the heaviest criticism falls on the sadist, who is merely being true to himself, as is the masochist; but vanilla folk perceive the sadist as selfish (at best) and the masochist as the victim of the sadist. Not that the latter scenario can't be fun too ;) quote: ORIGINAL: Caretakr A strictly ego centric perspective is a formula for relationship disaster. Perhaps that is why hedonists seem to do so poorly with interpersonal relationships. Without the ability to sacrifice for the good of a connection,it's going to be tenuous at best. I have always felt that if one has a continual series of failures,the most common element-oneself- must be examined and adjusted. But sadly,it seems that many go through life without the innate realization that serving the needs of others serves oneself, in the return.

LadyMorgynn -> RE: all about you? (6/27/2006 12:32:40 PM)
Yes! Exactly! Thank you :) quote: ORIGINAL: Caretakr When one moves beyond the need for external validation in viewing the world,you begin to see the world-not merely your own tiny place within it.

LadyHugs -> RE: all about you? (6/27/2006 12:40:04 PM)
Dear Caretakr, Ladies and Gentlemen; In my mind's eye, I am of the thought that people can only reference to what exposure to 'life' per se that they have to speak upon. Also, how words are written can be dual meaning and provoke different responses, to which can be positive or negative. Also the 'us-them' mentality the whole world as a civilization operates on, does also provoke similar responses. It really is a form of identity and belonging to something. Much like an address to a class of people. When you have spokesmen for such a class, it really is not a altogether true representation of that class. Most times spokesmen or leaders of a group put their own feelings, bias, purpose and or intent into their words. Some wish peace and some wish war. And, I may add, that some individuals take it upon themselves to stick their bias, hate and opinions into a class of people as to insite and destroy them after stirring the pot. There really is no genuine purpose other than to cause problems and laugh at the rest bite and fight each other. You have such people peppered throughout civilizations and or groups. Being in a class of people, this stirs 'war' signals. Attack-defend. Never ends until there is an advantage to do so, e.g. Civil War. When there is a class of people that we can identify as an individual, it causes us to side and defend it. However, not everybody understands when it is ignorance speaking and or when it is an attack with purpose and malice. Respectfully submitted for consideration, Lady Hugs

MistressDREAD -> RE: all about you? (6/27/2006 12:40:16 PM)
Yes on here in the boards of BDSM where the world can see Me here at large it IS all about Me and My Alternate Lifestyle and how I relate to it based off of who I am. How else will tolerance and understanding be gained if personal reflections of self are not seen in all of Our kinks and differances to the perceived norm.

Caretakr -> RE: all about you? (6/27/2006 12:45:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyMorgynn Not to hijack the thread, but this is exactly what I have observed about satanists, too... the Church of Satan satanists, not the other kind. The emphasis so completely on "me-me-me" with no alleviating compassion for or consideration for others, almost a complete denial of another person's right to have feelings, needs and wants, that life itself becomes a narrow (if eccentric) tunnel... very sad. There's a difference between being "all about me" in the sense of being true to yourself, and being egocentric and selfish. The difference is also very subjective, relative to who it is who's looking! Well, we all know that, don't we? Vanilla folk just don't GET that the submissive is getting anything out of being whipped, the heaviest criticism falls on the sadist, who is merely being true to himself, as is the masochist; but vanilla folk perceive the sadist as selfish (at best) and the masochist as the victim of the sadist. Not that the latter scenario can't be fun too ;) quote: ORIGINAL: Caretakr A strictly ego centric perspective is a formula for relationship disaster. Perhaps that is why hedonists seem to do so poorly with interpersonal relationships. Without the ability to sacrifice for the good of a connection,it's going to be tenuous at best. I have always felt that if one has a continual series of failures,the most common element-oneself- must be examined and adjusted. But sadly,it seems that many go through life without the innate realization that serving the needs of others serves oneself, in the return. Let me put it this way. If my personal style of extremes of control,sadism,Dominance,etc.....provide an ideal enviornment for a slave who has matching prefferences in her needs-I am being far from abusive-I am providing a symbiosis that allows us both joy in expressing our inner beings. As she sees to mine. And yet,the combined selfishness on both of our parts contributes to an altruism supporting the relationship. And that relationship is the child of us both-the third and invisble partner that brings us to intimacy.

IronBear -> RE: all about you? (6/27/2006 12:49:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross Insecurities. A lot of subs are actually people pleasing control freak perfectionists- and that's a fairly conceited perspective to take in life- thinking that THEY have to get it right, that if THEY don't do it right then the whole world will go awry, that if what THEY do is not given the right approval then London Bridge all falls down. Ds is perfectly suited for this type of personality. And it can be used productively as long as its kept in check and doesn't affect one's overall functioning and happiness in a negative way. But it comes down to insecurities. I don't know why people worry so much about getting partly naked in a club- everyone ELSE is so busy worrying about it that they really don't care much about you. LA I think you have it mostly spot on lass. If we added egos as well and combined them we may have covered the whole group. I do however believe that this is not just about the BDSM scene, I've seen the same in the Pagan/Wiccan scene too and I guess it filters into most areas of life. The constant is the personalities of the people rather than what they do. Many people have huge insecurities from theor personal social life to their jobs or their looks to their health. Todays society to some extend runs on peoples insecurities and needs them to carry on (especially employers). Thus the balancing act is provided by egos and those with large egos who prey on those with specific insecurities.

Caretakr -> RE: all about you? (6/27/2006 12:50:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MistressDREAD Yes on here in the boards of BDSM where the world can see Me here at large it IS all about Me and My Alternate Lifestyle and how I relate to it based off of who I am. How else will tolerance and understanding be gained if personal reflections of self are not seen in all of Our kinks and differances to the perceived norm. I may have a different take on this. I am often objective, and compartmentalized to extremes. I can take the totally alien within me, and explore it. I can be the liberal, the Islamic terrorist, the child.....then I can step back out side,and say, "I know you." And I no longer have to feel fear. I may not agree with who they are-or support them. But I have expanded my power. To know a thing is to gain inner control over it- ignorance is not bliss, it is weakness.

hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: all about you? (6/27/2006 12:50:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyMorgynn There's a difference between being "all about me" in the sense of being true to yourself, and being egocentric and selfish. The difference is also very subjective, relative to who it is who's looking! Well, we all know that, don't we? Vanilla folk just don't GET that the submissive is getting anything out of being whipped, the heaviest criticism falls on the sadist, who is merely being true to himself, as is the masochist; but vanilla folk perceive the sadist as selfish (at best) and the masochist as the victim of the sadist. It's funny that you brought up that Society At Large tends to view the Sadist as the selfish one within an SM context. My personal experience has shown me that this is indeed the case - that society Does have that perspective - though that may not be the Fact of who is being "selfish" in the context of mutual play. Personally, I'm VERY selfish and "all about me" when it comes to SM - and I'm primarily a masocist. If I'm getting what I want/need out of the physical stimulation, I could honestly care less much of the time whether they're getting what THEY need/want out of it. Then again, I go into play with the (perhaps mistaken) assumption that if they don't like what they're doing, aren't getting something "selfish" out of it from their own perspective - they wouldn't be capitulating to fulfillment of my selfish masocistic desires to be flogged, cropped, and paddled until their arm falls off from swinging the toys. (yes.. that's right... the lot of you ARE simply walking, talking, breathing machines to wield the flogger - you have no other purpose in life! [;)] )*

Caretakr -> RE: all about you? (6/27/2006 12:54:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach quote: ORIGINAL: LadyMorgynn There's a difference between being "all about me" in the sense of being true to yourself, and being egocentric and selfish. The difference is also very subjective, relative to who it is who's looking! Well, we all know that, don't we? Vanilla folk just don't GET that the submissive is getting anything out of being whipped, the heaviest criticism falls on the sadist, who is merely being true to himself, as is the masochist; but vanilla folk perceive the sadist as selfish (at best) and the masochist as the victim of the sadist. It's funny that you brought up that Society At Large tends to view the Sadist as the selfish one within an SM context. My personal experience has shown me that this is indeed the case - that society Does have that perspective - though that may not be the Fact of who is being "selfish" in the context of mutual play. Personally, I'm VERY selfish and "all about me" when it comes to SM - and I'm primarily a masocist. If I'm getting what I want/need out of the physical stimulation, I could honestly care less much of the time whether they're getting what THEY need/want out of it. Then again, I go into play with the (perhaps mistaken) assumption that if they don't like what they're doing, aren't getting something "selfish" out of it from their own perspective - they wouldn't be capitulating to fulfillment of my selfish masocistic desires to be flogged, cropped, and paddled until their arm falls off from swinging the toys. (yes.. that's right... the lot of you ARE simply walking, talking, breathing machines to wield the flogger - you have no other purpose in life! [;)] )* Thank you SO much. That makes me feel INFINITELY better about viewing masochists in the same light![;)]

LadyMorgynn -> RE: all about you? (6/27/2006 12:55:49 PM)
Heheheheh, insert "violet wand" instead of "flogger" and you've got me! LOL! <when I get mine, that is... it's ordered and I CANT WAIT!> quote: ORIGINAL: hizgeorgiapeach (yes.. that's right... the lot of you ARE simply walking, talking, breathing machines to wield the flogger - you have no other purpose in life! [;)] )

MistressDREAD -> RE: all about you? (6/27/2006 12:58:46 PM)
quote: To know a thing is to gain inner control over it- ignorance is not bliss, it is weakness. [:)]

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