Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

19 Firefighters killed in Arizona.


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> 19 Firefighters killed in Arizona. Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
19 Firefighters killed in Arizona. - 7/1/2013 5:24:30 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		This is truly tragic. These brave guys put themselves in harms way to save others.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23136491

I am wondering if more can be done in circumstances such as this. Should homes just be left to burn in order to save lives ? Is it possible to build communities surrounded by big fire breaks IE, as big as needed to stop the flaames from spreading ? Is it just a fact that if you live in any area affected by adverse weather then you take your chance ?

Anyhow my heart goes out to the families of those that died and anyone else caught up in similar circumstances.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: 19 Firefighters killed in Arizona. - 7/1/2013 5:53:44 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness;
for we do not know how to pray as we ought,
but that very Spirit intercedes
with sighs too deep for words.
ROMANS 8:26


May these brave, noble souls rest in peace.



_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: 19 Firefighters killed in Arizona. - 7/1/2013 8:42:35 PM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

This is truly tragic. These brave guys put themselves in harms way to save others.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23136491

I am wondering if more can be done in circumstances such as this. Should homes just be left to burn in order to save lives ? Is it possible to build communities surrounded by big fire breaks IE, as big as needed to stop the flaames from spreading ? Is it just a fact that if you live in any area affected by adverse weather then you take your chance ?

Anyhow my heart goes out to the families of those that died and anyone else caught up in similar circumstances.


I was pretty saddened by this as well. My cousin was a smoke jumper who was killed many years ago in a plane crash. Our family was pretty distraught by it, so my heart goes out to those families as well.

I think that most of the established, older communities are generally pretty safe, although homes on the edge of populated areas or out in the sticks may be threatened by forest or brush fires. It's been pretty dry and very hot here lately, and this fire was lightning-caused.

I'm not sure about Yarnell (about 150 miles NW of me), but some areas do have fire breaks. Firefighters also do controlled burns in order to burn out the dry underbrush to remove the fuel for a potential fire.

This elite crew had recently battled some blazes in New Mexico, too. The states loan out their firefighters to other states in times like this, since these wildfires are fairly common throughout the southwest. Many of the fires get put out rather quickly before they become a major problem, but there's always a few that turn into something like this. But I've never heard of this many firefighters dying at once. My mouth just went wide open when I saw that on the news.





(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: 19 Firefighters killed in Arizona. - 7/2/2013 4:10:12 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		I saw that they'd got into protective bags as a last resort, but these bags hadn't been able to do the job. It was just horrifying. Poor sods.

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: 19 Firefighters killed in Arizona. - 7/2/2013 6:31:11 AM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline 		So horrific you don't even want to think about it...but we should... because it is people like them who make the world civilized.

May whatever gods there be bring comfort to the bereaved.

ETA: I kept wondering yesterday why nobody started a post about this. I going to suppose that it was the same reason I didn't... I didn't want to deal with it and I kept thinking someone else would have more fortitude than me. I'm glad to see that someone finally did.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 7/2/2013 6:34:59 AM >

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: 19 Firefighters killed in Arizona. - 7/2/2013 6:34:33 AM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

May whatever gods there be bring comfort to the bereaved.

Amen.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: 19 Firefighters killed in Arizona. - 7/2/2013 6:57:13 AM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

I am wondering if more can be done in circumstances such as this. Should homes just be left to burn in order to save lives ? Is it possible to build communities surrounded by big fire breaks IE, as big as needed to stop the flaames from spreading ? Is it just a fact that if you live in any area affected by adverse weather then you take your chance ?


I think it is a question of how much damage will be done if you just let a fire burn out naturally. These firefighters were highly trained and were considered the elite in their profession. It just goes to show you that nature can overwhelm even the best of us.

As for the fire breaks (while I don't know if it applies in this particular circumstance), there are, believe it or not, environmental laws that forbid the creation of fire breaks because... ya know... it disturbs the spotted jumping mouse... or something. I believe, however, that many of these laws have been repealed in recent years.

While some areas may be more prone to destructive weather than others, I don't believe there is anywhere in the world that is immune to the nastiness of mother nature when she is PMSing. Where I live I am unlikely to ever be in an earth quake or a hurricane. Tornadoes are a possibility but a low probability. We usually get one or two good snowstorms every winter but (with a little advanced preparation) you just stay home and wait them out. In the case of blizzards (about once every ten years on average), you just stay home longer. Yeah, it is easy to get complacent where I live but just a few days ago mother nature reminded us who's in charge with a torrential downpour and some serious flash flooding. Where I work had a foot of water in it. The golf course across the street from my home was turned into a lake and what would have normally been a routine seven minute drive home was turned into a forty-five minute wilderness survial adventure.

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: 19 Firefighters killed in Arizona. - 7/2/2013 7:26:38 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Fire breaks only work if the wind isn't blowing hard enough to push cinders across it. And since a fire is consuming oxygen and super heating the air a broad front wildfire can add a substantial amount of velocity to existing wind speed. Since the people who build the houses and subdivisions out on the exurban edges of major urban areas do it precisely for that out in the wilderness look and feel they don't like big clear areas around the home or development. There is also the expense to create and maintain a fire break which is short sighted but...

Then of course is the simple fact that people in fire prone areas continue to build homes with flammable roofs.

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: 19 Firefighters killed in Arizona. - 7/2/2013 7:50:19 AM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline 		Fire breaks may not be perfect but your odds are still better with them than without... at the very least the can slow a fire down, giving fire fighters a better chance to contain it.

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: 19 Firefighters killed in Arizona. - 7/2/2013 7:56:06 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Fire breaks may not be perfect but your odds are still better with them than without... at the very least the can slow a fire down, giving fire fighters a better chance to contain it.

Certainly but they are not foolproof and it would make no sense to create them in the back country with no fire actually burning.

You do know the hot shot teams go in to cut fire breaks right? That the team that got killed had certainly been cutting one when they got overtaken by the fire?

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: 19 Firefighters killed in Arizona. - 7/2/2013 8:05:46 AM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Certainly but they are not foolproof and it would make no sense to create them in the back country with no fire actually burning.


That's like saying there's no point in having fire insurance for your house if it is not currently on fire.

quote:

You do know the hot shot teams go in to cut fire breaks right? That the team that got killed had certainly been cutting one when they got overtaken by the fire?


And they might not have had to go into that particular spot had there already been a fire break there.

I've already said that fire breaks aren't perfect so I don't understand why you are again pointing out that they are not perfect. It's a question of odds. Life often comes down to that... playing the odds.

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: 19 Firefighters killed in Arizona. - 7/2/2013 10:34:37 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
And they might not have had to go into that particular spot had there already been a fire break there.

And who is going to pay for all these fire breaks crisscrossing the wilderness areas? How wide are we going to make then? 100 yards? 150? Or are we simply going to pave it all over?

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: 19 Firefighters killed in Arizona. - 7/2/2013 10:42:04 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		FR

Errr . . . Now this is undoubtedly a stupid question - but does it help to drench one's house with a hose before a fire reaches it?

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: 19 Firefighters killed in Arizona. - 7/2/2013 11:32:29 AM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

And who is going to pay for all these fire breaks crisscrossing the wilderness areas?


The same people who pay for everything else the government does... the tax payers.

quote:

How wide are we going to make then? 100 yards? 150?


I'll leave that up to the experts.

quote:

Or are we simply going to pave it all over?


Okay, now you're just being a dick on purpose. I don't know why this is such a bugaboo issue for you but I don't really care... I done with it. Bottom line for me is: Fire breaks are useful in saving people's property and, more importantly, their lives.

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: 19 Firefighters killed in Arizona. - 7/2/2013 11:38:02 AM   
SeekingTrinity


Posts: 1834
Joined: 5/29/2012
From: The 'burbs of Portland, OR
Status: offline 		Not really sure that would help in a seriously dry area like Arizona. Plus temperatures out west here have been just this side of Hell as of late, so I'd question if what water remained after evaporation would make much difference. That coupled with fires increasing the air temperature surrounding them makes me wonder if its a futile effort.

But I live in a pretty rainy area 70% of the year (estimated), so this is all speculation on my part

< Message edited by SeekingTrinity -- 7/2/2013 11:42:21 AM >

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: 19 Firefighters killed in Arizona. - 7/2/2013 12:00:43 PM   
Marc2b


Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Errr . . . Now this is undoubtedly a stupid question - but does it help to drench one's house with a hose before a fire reaches it?


Yeah, I'm pretty sure that in most case the heat of the approaching flames would dry things out and negate the effort. But people in desperate situations aren't always thinking clearly and will often take desperate measures.

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: 19 Firefighters killed in Arizona. - 7/2/2013 12:08:16 PM   
chemeli


Posts: 335
Joined: 7/30/2012
Status: offline 		I watched a good documentary that raised this exact questions and issues, before this happened, called Burn. It's about a group of firefighters in the Detroit area and what they're going against, each day. It makes you think.

_____________________________

It's a woman, it doesnt know what it wants (aka the stereotypical joke)

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: 19 Firefighters killed in Arizona. - 7/2/2013 1:05:20 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SeekingTrinity

Not really sure that would help in a seriously dry area like Arizona. Plus temperatures out west here have been just this side of Hell as of late, so I'd question if what water remained after evaporation would make much difference. That coupled with fires increasing the air temperature surrounding them makes me wonder if its a futile effort.

But I live in a pretty rainy area 70% of the year (estimated), so this is all speculation on my part

They wouldn't help. They might no be aligned with the wind or enough flammable leaves and debris could have accumulated since it was cleared to make it ineffective.

There is a reason they send guys in to make those breaks after the fire is burning.

(in reply to SeekingTrinity)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: 19 Firefighters killed in Arizona. - 7/2/2013 1:09:01 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

Errr . . . Now this is undoubtedly a stupid question - but does it help to drench one's house with a hose before a fire reaches it?

It depends. Water absorbs a lot of energy when it boils so it serves to keep the temperature below most materials ignition point. If you're just dealing with embers landing on the roof that should work fine but if something, a tree or shrubbery for instance, is already burning right near the house the hose probably doesn't put out enough water to control or extinguish a fire.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: 19 Firefighters killed in Arizona. - 7/2/2013 1:11:41 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

May whatever gods there be bring comfort to the bereaved.

Amen.

Amen indeed.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 20
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> 19 Firefighters killed in Arizona. Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094