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150 Years Ago This Week - 7/2/2013 9:20:42 PM   
Zonie63


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Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline 		This week is the 150th anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg, fought on July 1-3, 1863. The Siege of Vicksburg also ended 150 years ago this week, on July 4, 1863.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/28/travel/gettysburg-anniversary/index.html

Probably one of the most significant weeks in American history.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYDhAmjmxYk



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RE: 150 Years Ago This Week - 7/2/2013 11:06:27 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

This week is the 150th anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg, fought on July 1-3, 1863. The Siege of Vicksburg also ended 150 years ago this week, on July 4, 1863.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/28/travel/gettysburg-anniversary/index.html

Probably one of the most significant weeks in American history.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYDhAmjmxYk





You are right that weekend most likely decided the Civil War. Hope you were not expecting a lot of interest in this though. People don't care much about history anymore.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 7/2/2013 11:08:33 PM >

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RE: 150 Years Ago This Week - 7/3/2013 12:30:25 AM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		Bama, yes we do.

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RE: 150 Years Ago This Week - 7/3/2013 12:53:27 AM   
Missdressed


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Status: offline 		Not everyone on this site is American, and if they aren't it will be of limited interest to them.

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RE: 150 Years Ago This Week - 7/3/2013 6:59:48 AM   
Marc2b


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Status: offline 		A day of tragic loss and heartache for so many.

A day of courage and valor for both sides yet also a day of triumph for the Union. You can't help but wonder how differently American history... and thus world history... would have unfolded had events gone the other way.

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RE: 150 Years Ago This Week - 7/3/2013 7:12:46 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Bama, yes we do.


Some people do, but a lot of people still don't. I get Bama's point, and I wasn't expecting a lot of interest.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missdressed

Not everyone on this site is American, and if they aren't it will be of limited interest to them.


I also realize that a lot of forum participants are not American, but I've also seen a lot of people (both American and non-American) who seem to revel in criticizing America as it is today, yet apparently take very little interest in how we got to this point.

< Message edited by Zonie63 -- 7/3/2013 7:13:21 AM >

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RE: 150 Years Ago This Week - 7/3/2013 7:23:49 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

A day of tragic loss and heartache for so many.

A day of courage and valor for both sides yet also a day of triumph for the Union. You can't help but wonder how differently American history... and thus world history... would have unfolded had events gone the other way.


Indeed. There's a lot of "what if" questions associated with this battle.

I've heard it said that the Civil War defines America as it is today more so than the American Revolution.

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RE: 150 Years Ago This Week - 7/3/2013 7:47:50 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Indeed. There's a lot of "what if" questions associated with this battle.

I've heard it said that the Civil War defines America as it is today more so than the American Revolution.


The civil war and the subsequent passage of the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments to the Constitution did indeed redefine America.

If the Revolution to the Civil War could be considered America 1.0, then the Civil War to the present could be considered America 2.0. With all the grappling over such issues as gay rights, continuing racism, health insurance, wealth distribution, etc... I wonder if it is not time for America 3.0. Hopefully we can skip the civil war this time and go straight to the amending process.

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RE: 150 Years Ago This Week - 7/3/2013 8:53:00 AM   
MrRodgers


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Status: offline 		Yes, these victories of the north were very important in bringing the civil war to an end but.....

Historians will tell you that the Antietam stalemate was the beginning of the end and were it not for McClellan's incompetence...should have ended [it] right there. (the gen. failed to pursue and capture Lee's army)

Antietam signaled to the Europeans that certainly after the following emancipation proclamation, the south was then entirely on its own.

Lee would not again get north with any chance of threatening Washington to pressure [it] to sue for peace and now without foreign help would never again have the resources. Except.....

During the Union siege of Petersburg, see the Battle of Monocacy River, if not for a previously demoted Gen. Wallace's delay of Con. Gen. Early's march on Wash.at great cost, (1300 lost) for an entire day...could have taken Washington.



< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 7/3/2013 8:54:53 AM >

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RE: 150 Years Ago This Week - 7/3/2013 8:56:35 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Bama, yes we do.

I did not mean to imply that nobody does, glad that you see it's importance.

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People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: 150 Years Ago This Week - 7/3/2013 9:07:20 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Yes, these victories of the north were very important in bringing the civil war to an end but.....

Historians will tell you that the Antietam stalemate was the beginning of the end and were it not for McClellan's incompetence...should have ended [it] right there. (the gen. failed to pursue and capture Lee's army)

Antietam signaled to the Europeans that certainly after the following emancipation proclamation, the south was then entirely on its own.

Lee would not again get north with any chance of threatening Washington to pressure [it] to sue for peace and now without foreign help would never again have the resources. Except.....

During the Union siege of Petersburg, see the Battle of Monocacy River, if not for a previously demoted Gen. Wallace's delay of Con. Gen. Early's march on Wash.at great cost, (1300 lost) for an entire day...could have taken Washington.



While nothing you said is false. At Gettysburg Lee was between Meade and DC. A southern victory there would have changed everything. You may be unaware of the "draft riots" in New York. Had Meade not won he would have been unable to take his troops to NYC and put an end to what could easily have grown into a race war in the north. The "draft riots" being Irish killing blacks.
The importance of Vicksburg is often overlooked. It cut Texas Louisiana and Arkansas off from the rest of the south. If these two battles had gone differently all previous accomplishments by the north would have been in vain.


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
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RE: 150 Years Ago This Week - 7/3/2013 9:08:48 AM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Yes, these victories of the north were very important in bringing the civil war to an end but.....

Historians will tell you that the Antietam stalemate was the beginning of the end and were it not for McClellan's incompetence...should have ended [it] right there. (the gen. failed to pursue and capture Lee's army)

Antietam signaled to the Europeans that certainly after the following emancipation proclamation, the south was then entirely on its own.

Lee would not again get north with any chance of threatening Washington to pressure [it] to sue for peace and now without foreign help would never again have the resources. Except.....

During the Union siege of Petersburg, see the Battle of Monocacy River, if not for a previously demoted Gen. Wallace's delay of Con. Gen. Early's march on Wash.at great cost, (1300 lost) for an entire day...could have taken Washington.





_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
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RE: 150 Years Ago This Week - 7/3/2013 9:47:57 AM   
MrRodgers


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Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Yes, these victories of the north were very important in bringing the civil war to an end but.....

Historians will tell you that the Antietam stalemate was the beginning of the end and were it not for McClellan's incompetence...should have ended [it] right there. (the gen. failed to pursue and capture Lee's army)

Antietam signaled to the Europeans that certainly after the following emancipation proclamation, the south was then entirely on its own.

Lee would not again get north with any chance of threatening Washington to pressure [it] to sue for peace and now without foreign help would never again have the resources. Except.....

During the Union siege of Petersburg, see the Battle of Monocacy River, if not for a previously demoted Gen. Wallace's delay of Con. Gen. Early's march on Wash.at great cost, (1300 lost) for an entire day...could have taken Washington.



While nothing you said is false. At Gettysburg Lee was between Meade and DC. A southern victory there would have changed everything. You may be unaware of the "draft riots" in New York. Had Meade not won he would have been unable to take his troops to NYC and put an end to what could easily have grown into a race war in the north. The "draft riots" being Irish killing blacks.
The importance of Vicksburg is often overlooked. It cut Texas Louisiana and Arkansas off from the rest of the south. If these two battles had gone differently all previous accomplishments by the north would have been in vain.


I disagree. If Lee had 'won' as Gettysburg, Meade and Grant could have marshaled their forces to protect Washington. Any delay in the taking of Vicksburg would simply have delayed what was then...the inevitable because by that time Union incompetence was a thing of the past.

The draft riots notwithstanding (the Northern draft began in 1862 2 years prior to the national draft) it still produced another 100,000 troops and in 64 100,000 free and freed blacks had joined the war.

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RE: 150 Years Ago This Week - 7/3/2013 10:15:00 AM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		I disagree. If Lee had 'won' as Gettysburg, Meade and Grant could have marshaled their forces to protect Washington. Any delay in the taking of Vicksburg would simply have delayed what was then...the inevitable because by that time Union incompetence was a thing of the past.

The draft riots notwithstanding (the Northern draft began in 1862 2 years prior to the national draft) it still produced another 100,000 troops and in 64 100,000 free and freed blacks had joined the war.


It is doubtful that Lee could have taken D C but a victory at Gettysburg would have let Lee move into the industrial heart of the north while Grant was marshaling forces to defend D C.
While they were called draft riots they were really race riots with better than 150 blacks lynched in NYC. Had this not been stopped as quickly as it was how many of those hundred thousand blacks who, by your own statement, had not joined up would have?
Gettysburg was Lee's first defeat had he won it would have stricken a serious blow to northern morale. Remember McClellan nearly defeated Lincoln in 64 on peace platform. A southern victory a Gettysburg could easily have changed that. Not saying it would have but the distinct possibility has to be taken into account.

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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
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RE: 150 Years Ago This Week - 7/3/2013 10:19:20 AM   
popeye1250


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Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Funny, my brother took his wife and kids to visit Gettysburg two years ago and said he was walking around there at dusk and got a "very eerie feeling."
And, President Lincoln's Gettysburg address is widely considered to be the most eloquent speech by any president ever.

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RE: 150 Years Ago This Week - 7/3/2013 11:50:19 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Funny, my brother took his wife and kids to visit Gettysburg two years ago and said he was walking around there at dusk and got a "very eerie feeling."
And, President Lincoln's Gettysburg address is widely considered to be the most eloquent speech by any president ever.

And if not the most eloquent the most memorable.

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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to popeye1250)
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RE: 150 Years Ago This Week - 7/3/2013 2:19:16 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

And if not the most eloquent the most memorable.

I'd agree with both adjectives.

Indeed, the speech has almost become better known than the battle. That's ironic, given Lincoln's prediction that "The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here."

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it's never enough to keep up.

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RE: 150 Years Ago This Week - 7/3/2013 2:35:30 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

And if not the most eloquent the most memorable.

I'd agree with both adjectives.

Indeed, the speech has almost become better known than the battle. That's ironic, given Lincoln's prediction that "The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here."

The lack of self importance is part of the eloquence.

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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: 150 Years Ago This Week - 7/3/2013 2:51:36 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

The lack of self importance is part of the eloquence.

True. And we tend to forget that the initial reaction to the speech was tepid.

Interestingly, one of the first to grasp its significance was noted orator Edward Everett, who was the keynoter that day. He wrote the President, "I should be glad, if I could flatter myself that I came as near to the central idea of the occasion, in two hours, as you did in two minutes."

One can see the letter at the Library of Congress site.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: 150 Years Ago This Week - 7/3/2013 2:59:57 PM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		Yup, and one Lt. James Baughman of the 56th Pennsylvania was there, damn (expletive deleted) Yankee great great grandfather.

Maybe that is why I do not get along with my mom's family all that well.

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