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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 6:04:37 PM   
BitYakin


Posts: 882
Joined: 10/15/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


So George could have been full of it when he told the pretty PA that he was taking MMA classes. Yet, that flew in court.

If that's all they had to go on, yes.

But there were real flesh and blood witnesses and written records.

Do you know the difference between real people and a text?



All the State submitted was what George told the PA.

No different than what Trayvon told people in texts.

It's verifiable. Is that word in your vocabulary?

If someone was taking classes whether it's MMA or fly tying, there is a paper trail and instructors to verify.

Internet boasting isn't verifiable.

Jeff, I'll take 4th grade vocabulary.


maybe I am being over sensative now, but after the jumping on I have gotten from some people here I now feel I need to clarify my posts with, I am not saying I KNOW, but am asking...

you say it is verifiable, and you are right, but my question is, was it verified before it was allowed to be entered into evidence?

if not, then I tend to agree that it should not have been allowed,

varifiable is not the same as verified.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 6:04:41 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Jeff, I'll take 4th grade vocabulary

I must ask: Who's Jeff? Has something happened to Alex Trebek?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 6:05:04 PM   
PressPlay


Posts: 15
Joined: 3/3/2013
Status: offline 		What he did was tell the dispatcher yes he was then when the dispatcher asked for his location, he would not say where and said to have the police call when they got there and he would tell them where he was.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 6:09:38 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Jeff, I'll take 4th grade vocabulary

I must ask: Who's Jeff? Has something happened to Alex Trebek?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0958228/

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 6:16:38 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0958228/

Thanks, Hill! I've never watched that one.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 6:20:57 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		It doesn't matter if your 'Doc' is a neurosurgeon, or a bedpan changer, once they climb onto an ambulance, they are bound by an entirely different set of state laws and licensure... a bitter pill for some to swallow, when an EMT-I tells them to shut up and quit trying to practice medicine from the wagon.

What Zimmerman said to any EMS person about his hobbies in his spare time doesn't fall under any 'medical diagnosis' criteria. Perhaps the judge knows something you don't about the law.


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

RULE 803. EXCEPTIONS TO THE RULE AGAINST HEARSAY — REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THE DECLARANT IS AVAILABLE AS A WITNESS

The following are not excluded by the rule against hearsay, regardless of whether the declarant is available as a witness:

(4) Statement Made for Medical Diagnosis or Treatment. A statement that:

(A) is made for — and is reasonably pertinent to — medical diagnosis or treatment; and

(B) describes medical history; past or present symptoms or sensations; their inception; or their general cause.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rule_803

Florida Laws: FL Statutes - Title VII Evidence Section 90.101 Short title.

90.803 Hearsay exceptions; availability of declarant immaterial.—The provision of s. 90.802 to the contrary notwithstanding, the following are not inadmissible as evidence, even though the declarant is available as a witness:

(4) STATEMENTS FOR PURPOSES OF MEDICAL DIAGNOSIS OR TREATMENT.—Statements made for purposes of medical diagnosis or treatment by a person seeking the diagnosis or treatment, or made by an individual who has knowledge of the facts and is legally responsible for the person who is unable to communicate the facts, which statements describe medical history, past or present symptoms, pain, or sensations, or the inceptions or general character of the cause or external source thereof, insofar as reasonably pertinent to diagnosis or treatment.



http://law.onecle.com/florida/evidence/90.803.html

Careful what you tell your Doc .. even when that Doc is a PA



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 6:27:00 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

It doesn't matter if your 'Doc' is a neurosurgeon, or a bedpan changer, once they climb onto an ambulance, they are bound by an entirely different set of state laws and licensure... a bitter pill for some to swallow, when an EMT-I tells them to shut up and quit trying to practice medicine from the wagon.

What Zimmerman said to any EMS person about his hobbies in his spare time doesn't fall under any 'medical diagnosis' criteria. Perhaps the judge knows something you don't about the law.


Ummm... No.. he said that to the PA.. which is covered in the law and referred to the section I pointed too... as well as to any EMS if its said in the line of a diagnosis.

I do happen to know just a wee lil bit about medicine

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 6:27:03 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		That seems like too rational and non-hysterical an assessment for this forum... are you trying to cause trouble?


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

I don't think either of the players that night were perfect little angels, or despicable demons. Bad shit happened that night, and bad choices Zimmerman made led to it.

The final and most important bad choice was for Martin to resort to violence.



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 6:35:24 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


So George could have been full of it when he told the pretty PA that he was taking MMA classes. Yet, that flew in court.

If that's all they had to go on, yes.

But there were real flesh and blood witnesses and written records.

Do you know the difference between real people and a text?



All the State submitted was what George told the PA.

No different than what Trayvon told people in texts.

It's verifiable. Is that word in your vocabulary?

If someone was taking classes whether it's MMA or fly tying, there is a paper trail and instructors to verify.



To the jury, it is not verifiable. The State offered no such verification to the jury. Zilch, nada, zip.

The jury has the same amount of verification as they'd have if the texts were admitted to them.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 6:36:10 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

That seems like too rational and non-hysterical an assessment for this forum... are you trying to cause trouble?


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

I don't think either of the players that night were perfect little angels, or despicable demons. Bad shit happened that night, and bad choices Zimmerman made led to it.

The final and most important bad choice was for Martin to resort to violence.



Yes

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 6:39:58 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

It doesn't matter if your 'Doc' is a neurosurgeon, or a bedpan changer, once they climb onto an ambulance, they are bound by an entirely different set of state laws and licensure... a bitter pill for some to swallow, when an EMT-I tells them to shut up and quit trying to practice medicine from the wagon.

What Zimmerman said to any EMS person about his hobbies in his spare time doesn't fall under any 'medical diagnosis' criteria. Perhaps the judge knows something you don't about the law.


What Z filled out on the medical history report is quite admissible as part of the legal, medical record, along with anything the EMS may have written down as well.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 6:45:24 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Florida models their rules after the FRE.

A pattern of some behaviors can be admitted to suggest that it might have been repeated at the time of the incident if the totality of the circumstances were similar. It cannot be used in cases of calling a rape victim a slut, to inflame the jury, for example.

This victim's past behavior, say pot smoking, grades, possible larceny, clothing, etc. is more inflammatory than probative on the question of 'did he criminally attack Zimmerman?'

If there were verifiable documentation of Martin attacking Hispanic people after spewing racist invective, or engaging in 'lying in wait' crimes, etc, then the defense would probably have already sent something up protesting the exclusion of it... I'm guessing they don't have it. Perhaps it's in the stuff the prosecution is still playing footsie with (if it exists at all).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Florida can say that all they want, the US Supreme Court explicitly says that the probative value has to outweigh the prejudicial impact.



Which is part of the reason for the rules of evidence, to decide what is probative vs. Prejudicial.

And Florida has decided that the defendant need not know of the victim's reputation for violence for it to be admissible, as it does not pertain to the defendant's fear of the victim, but the possibility that the victim was the aggressor.









_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 6:47:02 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		But not under the medical diagnosis exception.
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

It doesn't matter if your 'Doc' is a neurosurgeon, or a bedpan changer, once they climb onto an ambulance, they are bound by an entirely different set of state laws and licensure... a bitter pill for some to swallow, when an EMT-I tells them to shut up and quit trying to practice medicine from the wagon.

What Zimmerman said to any EMS person about his hobbies in his spare time doesn't fall under any 'medical diagnosis' criteria. Perhaps the judge knows something you don't about the law.


What Z filled out on the medical history report is quite admissible as part of the legal, medical record, along with anything the EMS may have written down as well.



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 6:48:28 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Well then, lets get into 'purple lean' and the 52 blocks.
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

That seems like too rational and non-hysterical an assessment for this forum... are you trying to cause trouble?


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

I don't think either of the players that night were perfect little angels, or despicable demons. Bad shit happened that night, and bad choices Zimmerman made led to it.

The final and most important bad choice was for Martin to resort to violence.



Yes



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 6:52:10 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		SANFORD --
A physician assistant who treated George Zimmerman's injuries the day after he said he shot and killed Trayvon Martin in self-defense testified Friday that she had treated Zimmerman before, and that he told her he'd had been involved with mixed martial arts several times a week.

Lindzee Folgate said she previously treated Zimmerman in August and September 2011. When he returned for treatment on Feb. 27, 2012, with various cuts and a broken nose, Folgate said Zimmerman told her he was in a fight and his head was shoved into the ground.

Yes, it does. MMA style is a form of fighting. He never stated what fight he was involved in, but did put in his record that he trained MMA style. His chart is definitely a part of this case.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 7:05:14 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		NOT A RESPONE TO ANYONE

Isn't taking the GF to the Martin home and interviewing her with Mrs. Martin and her lawyer there witness tampering.
I know the GF was pro Martin anyway but didn't that guarantee that she would say what they wanted her to?

< Message edited by BamaD -- 7/7/2013 7:34:06 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 7:28:52 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

you mention a 3 minute gap between the hang up and shooting, but that means there was a less than 3 minute gap between the hang up and the actual start of the confrontation...
would you say it was fair to split the differance, and assume the entire spoken part and physical contact just prior to the shot may have taken 90 seconds? leaving the uncertianty gap at more like 90 seconds?

The timeline is this
7:13:41 — Zimmerman's call to Sanford police ends.
7:16:00 - 7:16:59 — Martin's call from the girl goes dead during this minute
7:16:11 — First 911 call from witness about a fight, calls for help heard
7:16:55 — Gunshot heard on 911 call
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin

So 90 seconds or so from hangup to the fight starting looks right. But that still has him standing around in the rain for 90 seconds supposedly doing nothing. Keep in mind part of his claim about why Martin was suspicious was that Martin wasn't hurrying in that same rain.

I think it's pretty clear to everyone that Zimmerman was still looking for or following Martin.

(in reply to BitYakin)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 7:34:33 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
All the State submitted was what George told the PA.

No different than what Trayvon told people in texts.

No. In this case it's either an admission against self interest or a party admission and within certain boundaries those are allowed.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 7:39:05 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

NOT A RESPONE TO ANYONE

Isn't taking the GF to the Martin home and interviewing her with Mrs. Martin and her lawyer there witness tampering.
I know the GF was pro Martin anyway but didn't that guarantee that she would say what they wanted her to?

Not unless there was some overt act.

The fact that a witness is afraid of retaliation, for instance, does not rise to the level of tampering unless a threat is actually made.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 8:24:00 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Only if it induced to her to make material changes to her testimony. Did that happen?
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

NOT A RESPONE TO ANYONE

Isn't taking the GF to the Martin home and interviewing her with Mrs. Martin and her lawyer there witness tampering.
I know the GF was pro Martin anyway but didn't that guarantee that she would say what they wanted her to?



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 160
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