RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (Full Version)

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Phydeaux -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/18/2013 5:22:22 PM)

You know.. like here.. where the punishment for renouncing the faith is death:
http://weaselzippers.us/2013/04/22/moroccos-official-islamic-authority-issues-death-fatwa-for-muslims-who-leave-islam/

Or here:
This time he was speaking in Arabic in Cairo and what he said was completely different : “What I actually said was that Islam prohibits a Muslim from changing his religion and it’s a crime that must be punished.”



Politesub53 -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/18/2013 5:24:42 PM)

Good job on avoiding the points..... Why not just keep switching track as the thread rolls along......



Phydeaux -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/18/2013 5:27:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Good job on avoiding the points..... Why not just keep switching track as the thread rolls along......


Because I don't need to justify every fatwa to show that that Islamic values are significantly different than western values. If you find one or two that are wrong - cool. But its doesn't change the overall picture.



Phydeaux -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/18/2013 5:34:14 PM)

Tolerant Verses One of the most popular tactics that Muslims utilize to promote their religion is quotes from the portions of the Quran that Mohammad wrote while he headquartered in Mecca during the first years of Islam. In that stage of Islam’s development it was weak in numbers and influence. At that time he was trying to win the support of the Arabs by peaceful means. His attitudes and strategies completely changed after he moved to Medina. There his movement gained numbers and he was able to organize a strong army and to impose his religion by force. In order to cover the contradictions between the tone of the verses written in Mecca and those written in Medina, Mohammad came up with the doctrine of the abrogator and the abrogated. It nullifies the Quran’s Meccan revelations and replaces them with those of Medina. When Islamists quote the Mecca verses that sound peaceful and conciliatory they know full well that those verses have been rendered obsolete by the more recent Medinian verses.

Google the doctrine of abrogation.

The abrogated: "Say 'O men, I am sent to you only to give a clear warning"' (32.48). "If they contend with you, say, 'God knows best what you are doing"' (32.67). "Repel evil with that which is best" (23.98). "Leave them (the unbelievers) in their confused ignorance for a time" (33.56). "Be patient at what they say" (20.130, 38.16). "All are waiting, so you too wait if you will" (20.135). "Have patience with what they say and leave them with dignity" (73. 10). "Make no haste against them (19.87). "Warn them of the Day of Distress" (19.40). "Forgive and overlook" (2.103).

The abrogating: "Fighting is prescribed for you" (2.212). "Fight those who do not believe" (9.29). "Fight the unbelievers whom you find round about you" (9.124). "Fight them (the unbelievers) until Allah's faith prevails" (2.189). "Slay the pagans wherever you find them" (9.5). "Slay them wherever you catch them" (2.187).

Several inconsistencies exist in the verses of the Qur'an which may be, and by some commentators have occasionally been, brought within the doctrine of abrogation. One important incompatibility is that which exists between the statement in 2.257 to the effect that there shall be no compulsion in religion, and that in 9.29 which commands Moslems to fight non-Moslems, including the People of the Book, namely Jews and Christians, until they accept Islam or humbly pay tribute. Similarly the dictum in 49.13 to the effect that God's purpose in creating men in nations and tribes is that they shall know each other is contradicted by several verses which forbid Moslems from associating with non-Moslems. Thus verse 5.56 enjoins on Moslems not to take Jews and Christians for friends; to the same effect are verses 3.27, 3.114 and 4.143.

A further reference to abrogation is made in the Qur'an where it states that Allah abrogates the interpolations of Satan into the utterances of Prophets (22.51). It is generally believed that reference is made here to the words pronounced by the Prophet when, in the course of reciting Sura 53, he said (following verses 19 and 20) that the three female idols of Arab paganism were acceptable to Allah as intercessors. These words, having been interjected by Satan, were soon withdrawn.

Islamic theology and jurisprudence give the widest scope to the doctrine of abrogation. One commentary (Kashf-al-Asrar in commenting on verse 2.100) says: "The orthodox view is that abrogation applies both to the Qur'an and to tradition. Thus the Qur'an abrogates the Qur'an, tradition abrogates the Qur'an, tradition abrogates tradition, and the Qur'an abrogates tradition. All this is firmly established and is recognised by jurisprudence."

An example of an existing verse held to have been abrogated by another is verse 24.3 which says: "An adulterer may only marry an adulteress, and an adulteress only an adulterer", and which is considered to have been repealed by verse 32 of the same Sura which contains this commandment: "Marry those among you who are single". Incidentally the same abrogation is also indirectly deduced from circumstantial evidence furnished by Tradition: the Prophet is reported to have meant the ruling in 24.3 to apply only to the case of two men who intended to marry two particular women of easy virtue plying their trade in Mecca, the ruling having lapsed after these cases had been disposed of.

Finally, it does not appear that commentators have discussed the question as to how the doctrine of abrogation stands in relation to the Qur'anic affirmation that Allah's word is unchangeable. "No change can there be in the Words of Allah" (10.64).



JeffBC -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/18/2013 5:56:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
What most of the mouthbreathers dont get is the news they are fed here is pablum.

*chuckles* Moving to Canada and getting a different news stream was certainly an eye opener... and even then it's still reasonably tightly aligned with America. Even so the view is radically different.



Moonhead -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/18/2013 6:04:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
What most of the mouthbreathers dont get is the news they are fed here is pablum.

*chuckles* Moving to Canada and getting a different news stream was certainly an eye opener... and even then it's still reasonably tightly aligned with America. Even so the view is radically different.


They don't think the Kenyan's a Marxist up there, for a start.
Who'd think that Murdoch not owning the whole of the broadcast media would make such a difference?



PeonForHer -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/18/2013 6:17:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

In attempting to answer the question 'Why Arabs don't like the USA?', there are main two options being advanced here. The first locates the source of Arab distaste in religious fundamentalism (Muslim fundamentalism of course, never Christian fundamentalism, because as we all know, the West is the only injured party in all of this, and anyway we in the West are soooooo law abiding and reasonable, aren't we?), the second locates the answer in the political and economic arenas.



A few pages on and the locus of debate is *still* religion and not politics or economics. Pfft. Forget about it.



Esinn -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/18/2013 6:43:00 PM)

Arabs do not like us. Because people join the military. Then group up, like wolves - they could not do it alone. Often even as packs they can not do it. They do it from the air, sea or long distances and murder them.

No shit.



Powergamz1 -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/18/2013 8:59:37 PM)

I'll settle for one that supports your blanket claims about 'Muslims', not the cherry picked nonsense where you tack on the word 'western' after claiming that Muslims as a whole abstain from music and dance.

But we both already know you haven't got any.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

quote:

4. I would say culturally that muslims have great resistance to dress, dance, music, gay rights etc.


Gay rights, overall yes. I have no idea where you get those others. Do you think all Muslims, or even all Arabian Muslims simply sit around in tents in the desert doing nothing?


I quoted the source.
But here are some others:

In the year 2005, an Islamic Organization Jamiat-e-Ulama-e-Hind based in Kolkata issued a fatwa warning ominously that Mirza would be ‘stopped from playing’ if she did not start wearing ‘proper clothes’

But the Malaysian National Fatwa council hates such girls. (Actually they hate all kind of girls). So in order to prove their point, they ordered a Fatwa against girls who dress like Tomboys. Abdul Shukor Husin, chairman of the council, said many young women admire the way men dress and behave – and branded it a denial of their femininity and a violation of human nature. He said: “It is unacceptable to see women who love the male lifestyle including dressing in the clothes men wear.

In 2006, Hasan Khalil a former dean of Al-Azhar University, Cairo ruled that a marriage would be considered void if the couple had sex in a naked state.

In 2005, a 28 year old woman, Imrana was raped by her father-in-law Ali Mohammad in a village in India. Rather thanlistening to the plea of the poor woman, the Islamic court in Deoband issued a fatwa which said that as a result of her father-in-law’s act, she should now be treated as the mother of her husband and she could no longer live with him.

An Islamic cleric from Kashmir has issued fatwa against low-waist jeans, stating it as haraam in Islam. Now I don’t understand what wrong this low-waist jeans has done against Muslims? I fear they don’t issue Fatwa against Woodland and Levis in near future. Let’s find out why fatwa was issued against low-waist jeans: (News from Daily Bhaskar)

So here's one about western music: http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=1786

And another: http://www.islamawareness.net/Music/music_fatwa003.html

Here's one against all girl bands: http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-02-04/india/36741792_1_noma-nazir-fatwa-talented-young-girls

Here's the Spiritual leader of Iran saying you may not wear ties: - Wearing ties and bow ties http://www.khamenei.de/fatwas/29questions.htm#-%20Wearing%20colorful%20clothes

Note further down about western labels.

Here he says that teaching music is forbidden:http://www.khamenei.de/fatwas/29questions.htm#-%20Types%20of%20forbidden%20music

Women should not ride bicycles: http://www.khamenei.de/fatwas/29questions.htm#-%20Permissibility%20of%20women%20riding%20bicycles%20and%20motor%20bikes

Do you really need more cites?








Phydeaux -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/19/2013 12:34:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

I'll settle for one that supports your blanket claims about 'Muslims', not the cherry picked nonsense where you tack on the word 'western' after claiming that Muslims as a whole abstain from music and dance.


The go look again -because the supreme leader of Iran forbade teaching music to children. And that link was provided, as well as another link that said music was Haram (unlawful)

And, since you are misquoting - go show me a quote where I said anything about muslims as a whole. I've said muslim theology. Try to advance an honest argument please. My whole subthread was the proposition of whether muslim theology was consonant with western civilization.

That people choose not to live their faith has nothing to do with what the faith actually requires.

Here's a quote from one of the fatwas:
The case with music and unlawful singing is the same. It has been decisively prohibited in Shariah, as the evidences mentioned further along will show. Yet there are individuals that are not ready to believe that it is Haram.

In the modern era, music has spread to such an extent that nobody is free from it. Individuals are confronted with situations where they are forced to listen to music. It is played nearly in all department stores and supermarkets. If you sit in a taxi, make a phone call or even walk down the street, you will not be saved from this evil. Young Muslims drive around in their cars with the music fully blasted. The increasing popularity of music, which is prevalent in our society, poses a great threat to the Muslims.

Music is a direct ploy of the Non-Muslims. One of the main causes for the decline of the Muslims is their involvement in useless entertainment. Today we see that Muslims are involved, and at the forefront perhaps, of many immoralities and evils. The spiritual power which once was the trait of a Muslim is nowhere to be seen. One of the main reasons for this is music and useless entertainment.



Powergamz1 -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/19/2013 1:54:44 AM)

Still posting the disingenuous internet debate game I see.

Here is exactly what you wrote, complete with direct link, so you can stop pretending that you never posted it:

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4500835

4. I would say culturally that muslims have great resistance to dress, dance, music, gay rights etc.

Nothing about religious edicts, nothing about 'Western' music, nothing about children. Nothing about individual proclamations from fanatics. Muslims *as a culture*, resist dance and music.

Which, had you spent 5 minutes around, or bothering to learn anything about the Muslim world, is one of the most ignorance based and laughable statements ever.

You've got nothing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

I'll settle for one that supports your blanket claims about 'Muslims', not the cherry picked nonsense where you tack on the word 'western' after claiming that Muslims as a whole abstain from music and dance.


The go look again -because the supreme leader of Iran forbade teaching music to children. And that link was provided, as well as another link that said music was Haram (unlawful)

And, since you are misquoting - go show me a quote where I said anything about muslims as a whole. I've said muslim theology. Try to advance an honest argument please. My whole subthread was the proposition of whether muslim theology was consonant with western civilization.

That people choose not to live their faith has nothing to do with what the faith actually requires.

Here's a quote from one of the fatwas:
The case with music and unlawful singing is the same. It has been decisively prohibited in Shariah, as the evidences mentioned further along will show. Yet there are individuals that are not ready to believe that it is Haram.

In the modern era, music has spread to such an extent that nobody is free from it. Individuals are confronted with situations where they are forced to listen to music. It is played nearly in all department stores and supermarkets. If you sit in a taxi, make a phone call or even walk down the street, you will not be saved from this evil. Young Muslims drive around in their cars with the music fully blasted. The increasing popularity of music, which is prevalent in our society, poses a great threat to the Muslims.

Music is a direct ploy of the Non-Muslims. One of the main causes for the decline of the Muslims is their involvement in useless entertainment. Today we see that Muslims are involved, and at the forefront perhaps, of many immoralities and evils. The spiritual power which once was the trait of a Muslim is nowhere to be seen. One of the main reasons for this is music and useless entertainment.




tweakabelle -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/19/2013 2:19:32 AM)


quote:

Phydeaux
[T]he supreme leader of Iran forbade teaching music to children. And that link was provided, as well as another link that said music was Haram (unlawful)


The claim is "music was Haram (unlawful)" in Muslim culture. If this claim has any validity, it should be child's play to produce the evidence required to substantiate it. So, it might help your case if you could show us a Muslim culture anywhere in the world - and there's lots to choose from - that has no music as part of its cultural productions or traditions. You also might like to explain why a Palestinian singer who recently won the Arabic version of "America's Idol" made front page news throughout the Arab world, and the Western World too.

I've never heard of a culture where music is totally forbidden and I doubt whether such a culture exists.

Similar claims are made about alleged Muslim prohibitions on iconography. Those who need visual images to assure themselves that there is Islamic Art might like to check out: http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/shia-islam/images.

Finally one might note that a prohibition of "graven images" is in the Bible:
‘You shall not make unto you any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down yourself to them, nor serve them.
The 2nd Commandment; Exodus 20:4-6 as quoted at: http://www.patterninislamicart.com/background-notes/the-religious-dimension/

We all know precisely how much effect that prohibition has had on the production of images and art in the West - none. So why are these nonsensical claims advanced despite the weight of evidence to the contrary ? Some people, particularly Zionists, feel a need to de-humanise Muslims and Arabs whenever possible, for blatantly political purposes. Why should these claims be treated any differently to the standard Zionist diet of BS, lies and propaganda?



Politesub53 -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/19/2013 3:59:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Good job on avoiding the points..... Why not just keep switching track as the thread rolls along......


Because I don't need to justify every fatwa to show that that Islamic values are significantly different than western values. If you find one or two that are wrong - cool. But its doesn't change the overall picture.


Are you kidding me ?........ You made a claim about the father-in-law who raped his sons wife and the verdict of the village elders. I pointed out the truth of the matter and then you resort to saying you dont have to justify what you post.

That approach enables one to post any old bullshit without verification, using dubious websites and hope the rest of us just swallow it without question.

Laughable, just laughable.



PeonForHer -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/19/2013 4:28:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
A few pages on and the locus of debate is *still* religion and not politics or economics. Pfft. Forget about it.


. . . Hell's bells. It's not just politics and economics that has to take a back seat. It's psychology 101. Not even Maslow's pyramid of values is deemed relevant.



MrBukani -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/19/2013 11:41:53 PM)

Arabs love heavy metal so much they want uranium too

Arabs love gays so much they get fucked up the ass on a daily basis

Rich arabs love prostitution so much they order 5 whores in one session

Arabs love Lady Gaga so much they're singing they were born this way

Arabs love german cars so much because they love german work ethics

Arabs love jews so much because they gave them one god to piss off

Arabs love black tar so much they monopolized it.

Arabs love us so much they want to be just like us eating macdonalds, drinking coca cola and getting fat

Arabs love women so much they rather not see their hair cause they get woodies from lookin at luscious locks

Arabs love islam so much because they are the chosen people.

Arabs love Europe so much they all wanna live here

Arabs love sex so much they can have three bitches

Arabs love kids so much they teach them to throw stones

You have to pick and choose whether you put Most or only some in front of arab when you read what I wrote.[:D]



popeye1250 -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/20/2013 11:44:01 AM)

We give foreign aid to in excess of 130 countries now some of them for 20, 30, 40 years. (every single country in the Carribean has been sucking "foreign aid" out of us for decades now! When are we going to end it???)
They're not "emerging" from anything, they've just become dependent on international welfare most of which is stolen!
That's a great term eh, ..."emerging!" Surely coined by some Washington beurocrat to elicit sympathy for whatever country that it's applied to.
And since when did The People ever give *Our* govt permission to...."export democracy?" That's nothing but an excuse to interfere in the affairs of foreign countries!
Do you know *anyone* in the U.S. besides in "Washington" who even cares in the slightest whether those countries have..."democracy?
*OUR* govt. has been out-of-control for quite some time now.



Powergamz1 -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/20/2013 12:20:35 PM)

Cuba has been sucking foreign aid out of us? I did not know that.
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

We give foreign aid to in excess of 130 countries now some of them for 20, 30, 40 years. (every single country in the Carribean has been sucking "foreign aid" out of us for decades now! When are we going to end it???)
They're not "emerging" from anything, they've just become dependent on international welfare most of which is stolen!
That's a great term eh, ..."emerging!" Surely coined by some Washington beurocrat to elicit sympathy for whatever country that it's applied to.
And since when did The People ever give *Our* govt permission to...."export democracy?" That's nothing but an excuse to interfere in the affairs of foreign countries!
Do you know *anyone* in the U.S. besides in "Washington" who even cares in the slightest whether those countries have..."democracy?
*OUR* govt. has been out-of-control for quite some time now.




popeye1250 -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/20/2013 12:28:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Cuba has been sucking foreign aid out of us? I did not know that.
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

We give foreign aid to in excess of 130 countries now some of them for 20, 30, 40 years. (every single country in the Carribean has been sucking "foreign aid" out of us for decades now! When are we going to end it???)
They're not "emerging" from anything, they've just become dependent on international welfare most of which is stolen!
That's a great term eh, ..."emerging!" Surely coined by some Washington beurocrat to elicit sympathy for whatever country that it's applied to.
And since when did The People ever give *Our* govt permission to...."export democracy?" That's nothing but an excuse to interfere in the affairs of foreign countries!
Do you know *anyone* in the U.S. besides in "Washington" who even cares in the slightest whether those countries have..."democracy?
*OUR* govt. has been out-of-control for quite some time now.




Well, the get a rent check every year for GTMO.



Powergamz1 -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/20/2013 12:41:54 PM)

True dat.
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Cuba has been sucking foreign aid out of us? I did not know that.
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

We give foreign aid to in excess of 130 countries now some of them for 20, 30, 40 years. (every single country in the Carribean has been sucking "foreign aid" out of us for decades now! When are we going to end it???)
They're not "emerging" from anything, they've just become dependent on international welfare most of which is stolen!
That's a great term eh, ..."emerging!" Surely coined by some Washington beurocrat to elicit sympathy for whatever country that it's applied to.
And since when did The People ever give *Our* govt permission to...."export democracy?" That's nothing but an excuse to interfere in the affairs of foreign countries!
Do you know *anyone* in the U.S. besides in "Washington" who even cares in the slightest whether those countries have..."democracy?
*OUR* govt. has been out-of-control for quite some time now.




Well, the get a rent check every year for GTMO.




Phydeaux -> RE: Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. (7/20/2013 10:19:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

You do know the rapist father-in-law was jailed for ten years, right ?


Sure. After secular Indian authorities intervened.



Well played on ignoring the rest of the post........ Such as the part where I pointed out your claim was contradictory to Islamic law.


I ignored you, mostlly because you didn't bother to provide any quotes to prove your point. But I'll be fairer.

His ruling wasn't counter to muslim law. Muslim law more or less says that you should follow the fatwa's of your group of believers, or in your area. So again, this elder ruled his people, and issued a fatwa justifying what he did. Again - he wasn't overturned by the muslim community he was overturned by the intervention of the secular indian authorities.



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