RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN

RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/19/2013 8:36:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kana quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl ~smirks Im not looking for smoking guns here. However, if a news organization is going to throw facts around, they should be factually correct. Which has been 1/2 my beef for the last 102 pages and 18 months. My question is why haven't they been? I'd like to say that it's about selling papers and ratings, which it is to some extent, but it's also rapidly becoming clearer that this about gun control, specifically SYG. Which is morally and ethically repugnant.To repeatedly use tragedies as an excuse to advance a political agenda, to spread lies and defamation, to parade victims and their heart broken kin in order to advance a political agenda is just despicable. And when doing so inflames already sensitive issues,when it leads to looting in the streets, businesses burned (Not a lot of them, but tell it to the poor guy standing in the ashes of their dreams.), when it leads to withholding of evidence and tearing up civil liberties, yeah, that's just wrong. Even by the low low threshold of American political standards it's wrong. It kinda reminds me of the guy who, under attack, grabs a baby and uses it as a shield. Disgusting, right? But that's exactly what's happening, except now that baby is sword and shield. For some reason, that doesn't seem to bother a whole lot of people.Don't know why. Scares piss out of me, I'll tell you that. I have no issue what so ever with Castle Doctrine. I have no issue what so ever with Self Defense I do have an issue with SYG laws as they are being utilized. Taking a snap shot of the moment the killer becomes the victim minimizes the killer's own potential culpability.

SadistDave -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/19/2013 8:38:24 PM)
Are you just fucking retarded? Perhaps you should read a history book dumbass. The Amistad case was in 1839. Get this through your head dipshit. 1654 was before 1839. The rest of your purile, ignorant bullshit isn't even worth responding to, since you apparently can't read posts any better than you can read a calendar. -SD- quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: SadistDave ~FR~ Black Africans were being brought to Cuba as early as the mid 1500's. The Spanish kept them as slaves, but they were only allowed to enter the American colonies as indentured servants, and were free as soon as they had fulfilled the terms of their service. That was usually just paying for the cost of bringing them to the colonies, their room and board during the time they were in service, and any other expenses they may be indebted for. Being indentured was usually a term of service that lasted between 5 - 10 years depending on a persons trade and their ability to save or earn enough money to fulfill their terms. quote: Would you have any validation for this moronic bullshit? quote: The first slave owner in America was actually a black African man named Anthony Johnson. Mr Johnson had come to the mainland as an indentured servant. Hstorically inaccurate. First slaves come to the colonies in 1603. Get a fucking history book written for someone who is not an appologist for slavery.You might also wish to brush up on the particulars of the case. It deals directly with the slave tade between cuba and the u.s. quote: After he payed off his indenture, he bought a plantation and brought in other African indentured servants from Cuba. After his plantation caught on fire, Johnson sued the state of Virginia for the right to own a man named John Casor as part of a tax relief case in 1654. He won the case in 1655, establishing the institution of slavery in America. The virginia colony was not america, it was an english colony. Please try to keep your post historically accurate. In 1661, when Virginia enacted slavery as law, any free man of any race could own slaves. And no... they don't teach these things any more. -SD- When did it become illegal to be a free black in virginia? For someone who seeks to contort facts to fit your own agenda mr. history teacher, how is it possible for a black to own slaves in virginia?

BamaD -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/19/2013 8:43:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 When people think of the media making a profit from the misery of other people, I often wonder if they are using the imagery of farming... the media plants seeds of discord, and reaps harvests of sensationalized events to 'report' on. Or the visual of vultures circling. Lately though, I keep having flashes of jackals dragging down a baby zebra and shredding it with their teeth. Comparing the media to jackals. I'm tempted to call the SPCA.

Kana -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/19/2013 8:46:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: Kana quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl ~smirks Im not looking for smoking guns here. However, if a news organization is going to throw facts around, they should be factually correct. Which has been 1/2 my beef for the last 102 pages and 18 months. My question is why haven't they been? I'd like to say that it's about selling papers and ratings, which it is to some extent, but it's also rapidly becoming clearer that this about gun control, specifically SYG. Which is morally and ethically repugnant.To repeatedly use tragedies as an excuse to advance a political agenda, to spread lies and defamation, to parade victims and their heart broken kin in order to advance a political agenda is just despicable. And when doing so inflames already sensitive issues,when it leads to looting in the streets, businesses burned (Not a lot of them, but tell it to the poor guy standing in the ashes of their dreams.), when it leads to withholding of evidence and tearing up civil liberties, yeah, that's just wrong. Even by the low low threshold of American political standards it's wrong. It kinda reminds me of the guy who, under attack, grabs a baby and uses it as a shield. Disgusting, right? But that's exactly what's happening, except now that baby is sword and shield. For some reason, that doesn't seem to bother a whole lot of people.Don't know why. Scares piss out of me, I'll tell you that. I have no issue what so ever with Castle Doctrine. I have no issue what so ever with Self Defense I do have an issue with SYG laws as they are being utilized. Taking a snap shot of the moment the killer becomes the victim minimizes the killer's own potential culpability. But the way the media have handled this, the repeated and continuing lies and falsehoods, that doesn't bother you? I'm genuinely asking... Now me, I have no problem with SYG or no SYG, I couldn't care less (Though, break in my house and I think things should change) but I do care about things like constitutional rights, civil liberties, government oppression and overreach, fair prosecutions, minor pesky details like that. And I'm old enough to remember a much fairer media, when Walter Cronkite was one of the most respected men in the country. I also have this irrational belief in the need for a free press to act as an external watchdog of the government, one that maintains ethics and standards, crazy things like truth and decency. Rather neanderthal of me,I know. But alas, that's just how I'm wired

BamaD -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/19/2013 8:48:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kana quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: Kana quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl ~smirks Im not looking for smoking guns here. However, if a news organization is going to throw facts around, they should be factually correct. Which has been 1/2 my beef for the last 102 pages and 18 months. My question is why haven't they been? I'd like to say that it's about selling papers and ratings, which it is to some extent, but it's also rapidly becoming clearer that this about gun control, specifically SYG. Which is morally and ethically repugnant.To repeatedly use tragedies as an excuse to advance a political agenda, to spread lies and defamation, to parade victims and their heart broken kin in order to advance a political agenda is just despicable. And when doing so inflames already sensitive issues,when it leads to looting in the streets, businesses burned (Not a lot of them, but tell it to the poor guy standing in the ashes of their dreams.), when it leads to withholding of evidence and tearing up civil liberties, yeah, that's just wrong. Even by the low low threshold of American political standards it's wrong. It kinda reminds me of the guy who, under attack, grabs a baby and uses it as a shield. Disgusting, right? But that's exactly what's happening, except now that baby is sword and shield. For some reason, that doesn't seem to bother a whole lot of people.Don't know why. Scares piss out of me, I'll tell you that. I have no issue what so ever with Castle Doctrine. I have no issue what so ever with Self Defense I do have an issue with SYG laws as they are being utilized. Taking a snap shot of the moment the killer becomes the victim minimizes the killer's own potential culpability. But the way the media have handled this, the repeated and continuing lies and falsehoods, that doesn't bother you? I'm genuinely asking... Now me, I have no problem with SYG or no SYG, I couldn't care less (Though, break in my house and I think things should change) but I do care about things like constitutional rights, civil liberties, government oppression and overreach, fair prosecutions, minor pesky details like that. And I'm old enough to remember a much fairer media, when Walter Cronkite was one of the most respected men in the country. I also have this irrational belief in the need for a free press to act as an external watchdog of the government, one that maintains ethics and standards, crazy things like truth and decency. Rather neanderthal of me,I know. But alas, that's just how I'm wired Your view of SYG might well change if you were mugged.

VeryMercurial -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/19/2013 8:51:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cordeliasub Okay...breatha, then read...slowly...for comprehension. It was Martin's GIRLFRIEND who lived in the subdivision. Martin's GIRLFRIEND. Trayvon did not live with MARTIN'S GIRLFRIEND. And as far as this ride thing goes. I have teenagers. I would not EVER want them to get into a car with a random stranger for "a ride home." Now, do we understand or are we still too caught up in our need to be right to have reading comprehension? Okay can you breathe with me? Just breathe? It was Trayvon's FATHERS girlfriend that lived in the subdivision. Trayvon was TEMPORARILY living there, and staying with his father, and his father's girlfriend at the time.

Kana -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/19/2013 8:52:47 PM)
quote: Your view of SYG might well change if you were mugged. I've been mugged. But I wouldn't need SYG-Like Z, I'd claim self defense.

tazzygirl -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/19/2013 8:53:18 PM)
Oh Im not so sure all the lies are deliberate. Many, yes. Many were initiated by the lawyers themselves on both sides of the isle. Some by the Court itself. If you are waiting on the likes of another Cronkite, we will both have a long wait. Those days are long gone, I fear. What we have now are greedy corporations running news media who are afraid someone else will scoop their story, and the market share, so they dont bother to vet their information before running to "print". Hell, I would love another Andy Rooney at this point. I havent delved far enough into it all to fingure out just when the tides turned on reporting... but sensationalism has been around for a long time. The more sensational the headlines, the more tinfoil, the more of a market share, the more revenue. It all boils down to money. Btw, a break in to your home would be Castle Doctrine. [;)]

DaddySatyr -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/19/2013 8:59:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Your view of SYG might well change if you were mugged. If I have it correctly, SYG in plain English equates to something similar to: "Even if you have a way to retreat, we are no longer going to hold you responsible to do so". I think that's the crux of it. I will say this: As long as we seperate castle doctrine (NO ONE is going to require me to retreat in my own home) from SYG, I wouldn't mind if SYG was wiped out (sort of). I think the "path of retreat" has to be clear and VERY easily accessible. No question about it (which would be an element for trial). What a lot of the Martinites (A new religious group that ignores facts and just relies on a belief in St. Trayvon) are failing to understand is that with the evidence available, Zimmerman didn't have the ability to retreat. He doesn't have a cement drill coming out of his asshole that would have enabled him to retreat from the little cherub that was bashing his head into the pavement. So, SYG is NOT a factor and the defense never tried to invoke it. Let me repeat that: SYG is NOT a factor and the defense never tried to invoke it. The defense did argue self defense and anyone that wants that law repealed is just admitting that the inmates are running the asylum. Peace and comfort, Michael

Kana -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/19/2013 9:03:48 PM)
And again,ethically, morally, you don't find the venal political use of these tragedies repugnant? As for believing in another age of media honesty-I'm no naif. I see exactly what's going on. Which is why I'm such a giant advocate of a free net. Nothing is scarier to corrupt governments than the free exchange of information. There's a great line from the Wire, one that applies to almost all oppressed people "You know what the most dangerous thing in America is, right? Brother with a library card. " (Paraphrased because The Wire uses jargon that I cannot, nor would I if I could, use on here)

BamaD -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/19/2013 9:09:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kana quote: Your view of SYG might well change if you were mugged. I've been mugged. But I wouldn't need SYG-Like Z, I'd claim self defense. Me too but prior to about 07 in this state if I couldn't prove I had tried to get away I could do jail time. Even if in my home.

tazzygirl -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/19/2013 9:19:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kana And again,ethically, morally, you don't find the venal political use of these tragedies repugnant? As for believing in another age of media honesty-I'm no naif. I see exactly what's going on. Which is why I'm such a giant advocate of a free net. Nothing is scarier to corrupt governments than the free exchange of information. There's a great line from the Wire, one that applies to almost all oppressed people "You know what the most dangerous thing in America is, right? Brother with a library card. " (Paraphrased because The Wire uses jargon that I cannot, nor would I if I could, use on here) In one sense, yes, I find them repugnant. In another, no. Why hide a from the spot light? Eventually, the truth wins out. No offense, but its extremely easy for a group of white men (I have no idea what color your skin is, so dont take this as a personal attack) to state what they feel a minority may or may not feel in relationship to such an issue. I know how my brothers felt, who are just as mixed blood as I am, but who definitely inherited more of my father's looks while I had more of my mother's. In a small southern town full of "good ole boys" and "hicks", they had more than their share of hassles. They were not saints. However, I often heard them say... "If I am going to be accused of it (whatever it was) I might as well commit the crime." It gets that bad. "You know what the most dangerous thing in America is, right? Brother with a library card. " I find that sentiment actually rather sad. Its indicating that a black man with a library card is actually dangerous. Dangerous to whom? Only to the "establishment". The disparity of justice in the criminal justice system is felt differently by different races. Mostly based upon socio-economic lines. But even that is rooted in race differences.

Lucylastic -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/19/2013 9:19:51 PM)
I seem to remember SYG being discussed as a likelihood over a year ago, by all the "gun" rights peeps.

devoutworshipper -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/19/2013 9:29:33 PM)
I am glad to see this discussion. It seems like all of my fb friends are shouting, "Justice for Trayvon!" I am afraid to say, "Wait a minute!" As I understand it, Zimmerman did approach Trayvon in a way that I would say was overly agressive. I would have called the cops and let them check it out. Period. But once Travon was on top of George bashing his brians in, George was justified in defending himself. Both men made bad decisions. But T was not justified in attacking G. And G was out of choices.

Kana -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/19/2013 9:41:56 PM)
quote: "You know what the most dangerous thing in America is, right? Brother with a library card. " I find that sentiment actually rather sad. Its indicating that a black man with a library card is actually dangerous. Dangerous to whom? Only to the "establishment". The disparity of justice in the criminal justice system is felt differently by different races. Mostly based upon socio-economic lines. But even that is rooted in race differences. Oh, I absolutely agree re the CJ system. I've never argued that in the macro. And I find the library quote somewhat enobling. -It carries with it the seed of hope.Hope for change. Hope for transformation. -I happen to agree with the central thesis in the statement that education is the way to growth, for individuals and a people. American history is a testament to that fact. -I firmly believe the most dangerous thing in the world is not a weapon, but an idea. Ideas such as liberty, equality, socio economic parity-these things have shaken history to the core. What's that line from V for Vendetta,"You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea."

tazzygirl -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/19/2013 9:57:12 PM)
My objection is the use of the words "dangerous" and "Brother"... sending the completely wrong message.

Kana -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/19/2013 9:58:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: Kana quote: Your view of SYG might well change if you were mugged. I've been mugged. But I wouldn't need SYG-Like Z, I'd claim self defense. Me too but prior to about 07 in this state if I couldn't prove I had tried to get away I could do jail time. Even if in my home. Hell, here in the great state of Maryland, they use reciprocal force. Generally speaking, you defend yourself and you're going to jail. A few years back a Hopkins student killed a burglar with a samurai sword. The guy had broken in once that night, came back for more. When confronted he attacked,despite the student bearing a three freaking foot long naked blade. And got the Ronco slice and dice treatment for his troubles. And the freaking cops were seriously considering charging the student until Hopkins, the largest employer in the city,interceded and used their clout to keep charges from being filed. I'm telling you dude,MD is nuts. And the irony is that Baltimore has more handgun deaths per capita than any major American city. Whatever they doing-it ain't work.

Kana -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/19/2013 10:02:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl My objection is the use of the words "dangerous" and "Brother"... sending the completely wrong message. Well, the word The Wire uses isn't Brother.The show tends towards street slang colloquialism and the vernacular. Personally, I kinda like the idea of "Dangerous." It should be. We're talking about altering the existing social order.That's always dangerous. Someone always has a lot invested in maintaining the status quo. Entrenched interests fight to hang on, keep things ossified. It takes real sacrifice to change things usually. Witness the Civil Rights sit-ins, marches et. al...

tazzygirl -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/19/2013 10:05:25 PM)
Do you not consider the degree of culpability an issue in these cases?

BamaD -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/19/2013 10:07:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kana quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: Kana quote: Your view of SYG might well change if you were mugged. I've been mugged. But I wouldn't need SYG-Like Z, I'd claim self defense. Me too but prior to about 07 in this state if I couldn't prove I had tried to get away I could do jail time. Even if in my home. Hell, here in the great state of Maryland, they use reciprocal force. Generally speaking, you defend yourself and you're going to jail. A few years back a Hopkins student killed a burglar with a samurai sword. The guy had broken in once that night, came back for more. When confronted he attacked,despite the student bearing a three freaking foot long naked blade. And got the Ronco slice and dice treatment for his troubles. And the freaking cops were seriously considering charging the student until Hopkins, the largest employer in the city,interceded and used their clout to keep charges from being filed. I'm telling you dude,MD is nuts. And the irony is that Baltimore has more handgun deaths per capita than any major American city. Whatever they doing-it ain't work. I was based at Ft Meade for 4 years, and I agree that area is insane.

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