RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/14/2013 12:11:34 AM)

~FR

Well, I have had my fun. Its time to go wake someone up for some other kind of fun. [;)]




Powergamz1 -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/14/2013 12:12:59 AM)

That's pure speculation on my part... O'Mara isn't as incompetent as the CollarMe legal team keeps insisting, and West has too good a track record to expose themselves on a non-issue IMHO.




quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

On that, I have to wonder if O'Mara wasn't yanking the media's chain as he seemed to do a couple of times.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Saying it had nothing to do with the case is denying the very reason Zimmerman was found not guilty... it is the very law he built his defense on and the same law that allowed him to kill another human being and walk away a free man... Pretty logical to me.

Butch

You clearly paid no attention to the trial.
The Zimmerman defense team never used SYG.
They used self defense which is different.
Had SYG been involved there would have been a special hearing for it with no jury.
Had he won on SYG there would have been no trial.
It is impossible to retreat with someone sitting on top of you so SYG would not have been a factor.
Other than these trivial points it was all about SYG.



I agree with you by and large. The zimmerman team did at first assert a Stand your ground defense. They later determined that they did not want to open the door to certain lines of attack, and then reverted to a simple self-defense defense.





I don't think so. The judge came down pretty hard against the defense on numerous occassions - and I think at that point the defense wanted to minimize the possible downside the judge was capable of inflicting. Going into a jury deliberation with a judge denying the SYG immunity would cast one strike before the jury.

From my point of view this was an open and shut case, and Z's legal team didn't have a reason to take a gamble.






Termyn8or -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/14/2013 12:15:22 AM)

Actually the problem with SYG is that Martin could have been considered to have used it. That would have been a big backfire.

T^T




Phydeaux -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/14/2013 12:18:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

It's a valid opinion. With your clarification, you are now talking about the 'initial aggressor' stuff that descended from the old code duello.

I agree, there should be something in place to keep a person from running up to someone, slapping them and running around the corner, and then shooting the person who was just slapped when they give chase.


Here again we hit the problem that no one on this planet can reasonably know if Zimmerman goaded the attack and then shot, except Zimmerman... and he's not talking.

Unless we dismantle our justice system to remove bedrock protections like 'innocent until proven guilty', or adopt the Chinese model or the Inquisition, I don't see how your goal can be achieved.

And please understand that SYG wasn't simply created out of the blue in 2004... a bunch of legislators didn't sit down and decide to come up with a free-for-all.

SYG (and shall issue permit laws) are a direct *reaction* to the old racist Jim Crow and anti-Chinese laws that were designed to keep the poor and minorities from defending themselves against lynch mobs.

In the good old boy bad old days, those who weren't in power were required to retreat to the wall in the face of deadly force. A young man like Martin could have been legally shot in the back while leaving the store with his beverage and candy, as long as someone thought maybe he hadn't paid for them. An Hispanic like Zimmerman would never have gotten a CCW permit.

That's the USA I grew up in.

What you see as leading to tragedies, I see as leading away from lynchings, and adding to tragedies via the previously mentioned consequences. Nothing happens in a vacuum.


I'm all ears for a workable fix.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I consider self defense defending myself my family and my property when I am minding my own business not when I am minding someone else's. Basically that is what this law enabled and Zimmerman was aware of this law when he went looking for trouble with a gun.

I've nothing against using a weapon for defense when trouble comes looking for me but it should not be used in the way Zimmerman used it legal or not... Now I am fully aware this is just my opinion and you will never agree with me... So be it.

Butch





I agree with your conclusion, but not at all with your premise. SYG leads away from lynchings, leads aways from school shootings.
But in Florida I think it was was caused as a state reaction to other states (and the federal governments) attempt at gun control.




SadistDave -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/14/2013 12:33:03 AM)

Just out of curiosity, has anyone seen or heard the White House reaction to the verdict yet?

Some of you may recall that President Obama, who identifies as a black man, felt particularly close to this case because if he had a son, that son would have been a useless piece of shit like Trayvon Martin.

-SD-




Powergamz1 -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/14/2013 12:40:56 AM)

I think the 2004 SYG edition and more recent moves in other states (like the misnamed 'Make my Day' laws) have a strong component of NRA pleasing politicking to them. But the push pull on the right to self defense between the elites and the 'others' has been going on for a while.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

It's a valid opinion. With your clarification, you are now talking about the 'initial aggressor' stuff that descended from the old code duello.

I agree, there should be something in place to keep a person from running up to someone, slapping them and running around the corner, and then shooting the person who was just slapped when they give chase.


Here again we hit the problem that no one on this planet can reasonably know if Zimmerman goaded the attack and then shot, except Zimmerman... and he's not talking.

Unless we dismantle our justice system to remove bedrock protections like 'innocent until proven guilty', or adopt the Chinese model or the Inquisition, I don't see how your goal can be achieved.

And please understand that SYG wasn't simply created out of the blue in 2004... a bunch of legislators didn't sit down and decide to come up with a free-for-all.

SYG (and shall issue permit laws) are a direct *reaction* to the old racist Jim Crow and anti-Chinese laws that were designed to keep the poor and minorities from defending themselves against lynch mobs.

In the good old boy bad old days, those who weren't in power were required to retreat to the wall in the face of deadly force. A young man like Martin could have been legally shot in the back while leaving the store with his beverage and candy, as long as someone thought maybe he hadn't paid for them. An Hispanic like Zimmerman would never have gotten a CCW permit.

That's the USA I grew up in.

What you see as leading to tragedies, I see as leading away from lynchings, and adding to tragedies via the previously mentioned consequences. Nothing happens in a vacuum.


I'm all ears for a workable fix.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I consider self defense defending myself my family and my property when I am minding my own business not when I am minding someone else's. Basically that is what this law enabled and Zimmerman was aware of this law when he went looking for trouble with a gun.

I've nothing against using a weapon for defense when trouble comes looking for me but it should not be used in the way Zimmerman used it legal or not... Now I am fully aware this is just my opinion and you will never agree with me... So be it.

Butch





I agree with your conclusion, but not at all with your premise. SYG leads away from lynchings, leads aways from school shootings.
But in Florida I think it was was caused as a state reaction to other states (and the federal governments) attempt at gun control.






Powergamz1 -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/14/2013 12:43:18 AM)

Let me just go peek in the Obama's window. and see what the reaction is... Snore. [8|]
quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

Just out of curiosity, has anyone seen or heard the White House reaction to the verdict yet?

Some of you may recall that President Obama, who identifies as a black man, felt particularly close to this case because if he had a son, that son would have been a useless piece of shit like Trayvon Martin.

-SD-





Phydeaux -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/14/2013 12:47:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

No tazzy we don't. The 14th amendment guarantees us due process. And while we may be convicted of law due process means our rights are not trampled. We can fail to be ideal - but that doesnt me trample.


Yes, we do... by virtue of the Courts you are seeking that due process from all the time. Think rights arent legislated away for the "good of others"? Think again.


I do not say that rights are not lost or gained. I merely disagree that we, as a matter of desire, trample on the rights of others.
I don't think we live up to it, but no human institution does.




dcnovice -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/14/2013 12:59:59 AM)

quote:

Some of you may recall that President Obama, who identifies as a black man, felt particularly close to this case because if he had a son, that son would have been a useless piece of shit like Trayvon Martin.

This sentence actually tells us much more about your character than about Trayvon Martin's.




Powergamz1 -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/14/2013 1:02:08 AM)

Lester Chambers is out of the hospital with some bruised ribs. Would be nice if the violence ended there.

http://www.examiner.com/article/classic-rock-musician-lester-chambers-assaulted-on-stage-at-blues-festival




SadistDave -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/14/2013 1:58:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Some of you may recall that President Obama, who identifies as a black man, felt particularly close to this case because if he had a son, that son would have been a useless piece of shit like Trayvon Martin.

This sentence actually tells us much more about your character than about Trayvon Martin's.


Perhaps you should look into Trayvon Martins character a little closer. He was a suspect for grafitti and petty theft. He was known to be a dope smoker. At the time of the shooting he was suspended from school. Texts retrieved from this 17 year old punks cellphone clearly indicate that he was trying to illegally obtain a firearm. His racist comments about Zimmerman were testified to in court by his idiot girlfriend.

This is not an innocent child who was gunned down in cold blood. Trayvon Martin was a piece of crap who got killed because he started a fight and lost.

Whether you believe the evidence and testimony or not, the jury obviously believed that there was no evidence to contradict Zimmermans story that punk-ass Trayvon Martin started the actual fight. If they had believed the fairy tale the prosecutor spun for them, then they would have convicted Zimmerman of manslaughter.

Your inability to come to terms with reality hardly makes you a credible judge of anyones character.

-SD-




Kirata -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/14/2013 3:58:01 AM)


~ FR ~

I think anyone who watched this trial saw that the prosecution's game plan was to cast reasonable doubt on Zimmerman's protestation of innocence at every opportunity, not to prove him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. They couldn't do that. So instead, they tried to convince the jury that it should find Zimmerman guilty because there was reasonable doubt about his innocence.

George Zimmerman was never on trial here. What was on trial was the presumption of innocence and the obligation of a prosecution to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And when the jury acquitted, it wasn't George Zimmerman who won. It was America.

K.








Politesub53 -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/14/2013 4:15:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

You don't just have a gash, you are one.


At least having an unmoderated thread showed some of you arseholes in your true colours.

No self respecting man would talk to a woman like this, whatever the circumstances.




Politesub53 -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/14/2013 4:21:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

not guilty



I am very surprised Zimmerman wasnt found guilty of manslaughter.

Lets just hope people respect the Jurys verdict and the rule of law.




crazyml -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/14/2013 4:26:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


~ FR ~

I think anyone who watched this trial saw that the prosecution's game plan was to cast reasonable doubt on Zimmerman's protestation of innocence at every opportunity, not to prove him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. They couldn't do that. So instead, they tried to convince the jury that it should find Zimmerman guilty because there was reasonable doubt about his innocence.

George Zimmerman was never on trial here. What was on trial was the presumption of innocence and the obligation of a prosecution to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. And when the jury acquitted, it wasn't George Zimmerman who won. It was America.

K.









Unfortunately, this is it in a nutshell.

While I'm personally pretty sure that Zimmerman is a crazy murdering bastard - If properly directed by a judge on the question of "reasonable doubt" I'd have to acquit.




vincentML -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/14/2013 4:41:34 AM)

~FR

A satisfying and just verdict from a jury of six women of whom five were mothers, which the Prosecutor tried to advantage in his rebuttal summation. Beyond fantasy speculation here in this thread and in the Prosecutor's office there was no evidence to disprove Zimmerman's story of self-defense. The efforts by the television media to lynch Zimmerman as a gun happy, authoritarian racist cop wannabe were outrageous. The surprise is that Zimmerman got a fair trial. Not to say that Blacks have not been unfairly tried and convicted in this country. That record of judicial misconduct has been abysmal. But the solution to that bigger problem was not to be found by committing injustice on Zimmerman. Hats off to the six ladies on the jury.




jlf1961 -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/14/2013 5:25:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

You don't just have a gash, you are one.


At least having an unmoderated thread showed some of you arseholes in your true colours.

No self respecting man would talk to a woman like this, whatever the circumstances.




Having been informed a number of times the last few days that I am an asshole I must take this opportunity to come to this individuals defense.

1) The proper spelling of the term is asshole, dont know where you brits come off putting an "r" in there, the UK must have a lot of extra r's laying around and not enough s's to spell the word properly. Perhaps the US should start exporting the letter s to the UK?

2) There is no "u" in color, clearly showing that the UK has had a bumper crop of the letter over the last few hundred years. Instead of adding unnecessary letters to words, might I suggest that the UK develop a new industry of coining words to us them up?

Now in defense of my fellow asshole, there is probably some good explanations of term he uses to describe Tazzy. These could be:

1) he was not hugged enough by his mother.
2) he was hugged too much by his mother.
3) he was sexually molested by female aliens that were actually an intelligent form of walking female genitalia?
4) he was raised by a foster mother who was a crack smoking stripper that wore crotchless everything?
5) as the genie said in the Disney movie Aladdin, he took too many blows to the head from the snake.
6) he is actually a mild mannered man "girly man" who is trying to act like the cliche sexist asshole?
7) his penis length is less than three inches and his penis diameter is less than an inch?
8) he is making up verbally what he lacks physically, such as a well developed brain.
9) he is taking a class in asshology and he is perfecting his skills.
10) he is actually an inbred redneck son of a bitch who never learned respect from his equally inbred father who is also his brother. In which case, he is need of the services of our esteemed VAA to teach him some manners and the proper way to address a human female.

Now getting back to the topic of the thread.

I am rather disappointed in the reactions of the minority population of the United States over the verdict. I had been led to believe by statements from Rupert Murdoch's FOX news and other right wing news and current affairs media personalities that should Zimmerman be acquitted that they would rise up nation wide and start violent riots with looting, raping, beating of non minority people, an expanded version of a typical evening in parts of Chicago.

Now for that reason, ever since the shooting of Trayvon Martin (Zimmerman should have been convicted of manslaughter) and even though I live well outside the city limits, having been assured by these media personalities that the civil unrest would spread beyond the city limits, I have been preparing.

I have four months worth of MRE's, another six months worth of Gourmet freeze dried survival meals for the entire family to eat three meals a day for a year. I have enough ammo to hold off a prolonged siege of my property.

Now that it appears that these experts were clearly wrong about the civil unrest resulting from an acquittal, it is clearly evident that the money I have invested in home defense (never did get the razor wire strung around the perimeter) it is clear that I should have been spending that money on more important matters, meaning I should have hired a team of investigators to track down the home addresses of tazzy and VAA so that I could send them a dozen roses a day with home delivery "from a secret admirer" which would have driven them nuts trying to figure out who it was, with the balance being used to pay for the membership at the Girls Gone Wild website so that I could increase my ggw video collection.

I could have purchased the necessary items for living a minimalist modern life, such as 96 inch flat screen tv's for the living room, den and dining room, and 32 inch flat screen tv's for the bathrooms. You know the bare necessities.

Now I do honestly believe that Zimmerman was guilty of manslaughter, 2nd degree murder was a bit of a stretch.

As for the rest of this post, it was pure sleep deprived sarcasm...

except for the part about defending the asshole.




PeonForHer -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/14/2013 5:54:14 AM)

That, my dear JLF, was class. [:D]




jlf1961 -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/14/2013 6:01:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

That, my dear JLF, was class. [:D]


If you are being sincere, I thank you.

Considering that I over did it on the outside of the house trying once more to grow grass (st Augustine and Bermuda) mowing two acres of prairie grass... basically your typical 52 year old geezer trying to keep up with niece's 26 year old boyfriend....

My reward for the effort, a knee and ankle swollen so bad that today I am lucky to get to the bathroom without falling on my face.... (actually repeated strikes of my face against the wood floors might improve my looks>)




thishereboi -> RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN (7/14/2013 6:07:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

A petition to do what? Secede from the USA? Pass some knee-jerk unconstitutional law that will cost the state more billions in court before losing? There isn't a single state in the union that would have given substantially different jury instructions, or handled this case in any significantly different manner.




quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I hope to see those outraged by this verdict directing their anger where it belongs…Tallahassee. A mass protest, the circulation of a petition, and the voting boot next election cycle should be where this anger would do the most good.

Rioting and lawlessness will just separate people all the more and perhaps reinforce stereotypes when we see rioters loading flat screen televisions from broken storefront windows. What a fucking mess the state legislature has gotten themselves in.

Butch





Someone at moveon.org has already started a petition to the feds to charge him with civil rights violations.




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