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ORIGINAL: needlesandpins

actually it means a great deal when i'm the one fixing the problems caused by others. it makes a massive difference to the horses that are on the point of being shot and i'm its last chance. maybe you missed the point completely on that? I fix the issues created by others. i'm the solution not the cause.

needles

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My point was that Aries said your word should be gospel simply because you're a professional trainer

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....and believing some of the crap that animal rights groups puts out without actually verifying it is just as bad.

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I'm not believing anything put out by anyone, these are my opinions and ethics... Needles is a professional horse trainer... I think it's fair to say neither of us have been brainwashed by animal rights groups without "verifying"...

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Needlesandpins:

Yeah Jeff I'm so fucking air headed that I can't see for myself when an animal is being abused. Of course I need animal rights activists to tell me what is going on because I'm just too damn stupid to see it for myself.

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....and believing some of the crap that animal rights groups puts out without actually verifying it is just as bad.

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ORIGINAL: ARIES83

Just because we live in a world with a lot of wrongs, doesn't make any of them right.

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To be honest, I can see abuse of horses in just about any sport they are used in. I can admit that breaking a horse is anything but abusive no matter how it is done. There is just no gentle way of doing it. When something gets on a horse's back, they buck.

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ORIGINAL: tommonymous

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ORIGINAL: ARIES83

Just because we live in a world with a lot of wrongs, doesn't make any of them right.

I agree completely, and that's kind of what I'm driving at. But I also think there's no sense in trying to ban something that can do a lot of good because it has some wrong in some aspects or perpetrated by some of the practitioners.

I'd say pretty much everything is tainted in some way. Life is pretty brutal, and "civilization" has probably increased that brutality. And those of us who are "civilized" probably don't do much to decrease it in any meaningful way, despite our protestations and declarations. And, sadly, despite some very good best efforts.

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ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Needles insists that horse shows using the high stepping gate is perfectly okay. She says she trains horses to do that without abuse.

She cannot say that is true of every trainer and breeder in the industry. Competing horses make money, the quicker a horse is trained to compete, the better the investment. There is no way in hell that anyone can say that some if not many trainers resort to the most expedient training possible.

Yes I know the barriers for jumps are designed to fall at the smallest impact, still they do bruise the animal.

That high stepping gate so preferred in many equestrian sports is not natural the animal has to be trained to do that, horses walk the way they do in nature because that is how nature designed them to walk.

Arabians are the most inbred of all horse species, inbreeding is not good for any animal.

Considering that the PRCA PBR and the SPCA have been working together to minimize the trauma to the animals used in the sport and knowing that rough stock operations have to meet certain standards, Professional rodeos routinely have SPCA people on site, who have the power to shut them down. Riders who violate the rules concerning the treatment of the stock are disqualified or banned outright should mean something.

All that being said, not all rodeos are PRCA or PBR sanctioned events. I cant speak for the county fair rodeo that is thrown together for one annual event, and admittedly there are probably thousands of these each year. Rodeos where Joe Clodhopper is just dumb enough to climb on an animal and ride the hell out of it. None of those riders have been trained to get the maximum performance with the absolute minimum of stimulation.

Finally, I have seen rough stock transported in trailers that are either air conditioned or well ventilated and so loosely loaded that the animals are not forced to stay in one spot over the entire period they are in the trailer.

By the same token, PRCA riders that are not in the top of their standings are transporting horses in old style trailers that the absolute minimum standard for transporting the animal.

The only people that make money on rodeos are the promoters. Most of the time the cash prizes are a few thousand or less, a belt buckle and/or a saddle.

These facts bring up the question, why compete?

For ropers, it is to prove they have the skills to do what people expect cowboys to do.

For rough stock riders, it is the simple contest man against brute force. Teenagers get into the sport because of the buckle bunnies, they go pro because of the buckle bunnies and the challenge. Admittedly you have to be insane to some degree to straddle a bull or a bronc. The rush is no different than free climbing a rock face, base jumping, the only difference there is a adversary involved. Some are satisfied by getting on a mechanical bull for 8 seconds.

You could say the same thing about people that hunt Grizzly with a single shot pistol.

I rode for the adrenalin rush, I would bet that is why most ride. You sure as hell are not going to get rich, unless you are one of the top riders and have sponsors like tony llama, or other boot brands, or smokeless tobacco makers, any of the various industries associated with the Western Lifestyle.

When I worked ranches, my primary job was horse trainer, if there were no horses, I drove bull haulers, worked fences or went with the boss on buying trips to inspect horses. I probably know as much about Quarter Horses, Appaloosas, and other American breeds as she does about Arabians. I can tell after a few minutes what animals will be good as a range horse, a competition horse for roping or cutting events, and a horse that would be good for rough country trail rides, and the horses for children.

I work with a local horse rescue that is affiliated with the SPCA dealing with mistreated animals. If you think that rodeo is bad for the animals, you should see what "respectable" people do to them. Some parent buys a horse because baby tommy wants one, and then when baby tommy is no longer interested, the animal is neglected or worse. Andy City Slicker buys a place in the country, buys a few horses and cows, and then expect that he just has to do the bare minimum for the animals. Texas just recently passed laws that make jail sentences possible for animal neglect. I suggest you watch animal cops houston or any of the western cities and see how many horses are rescued.

Yes, rodeo is anything but civilized. The sport stems from a culture that is still glorified in the United States. That of the old west, Cowboys and Indians, John Wayne, Audie Murphy, and a dozen other movie stars helped create the cowboy mystique. And people pay big money to go watch "Cowboys" compete. Sure, criticize those of us who compete or did compete. I can honestly say that if people werent paying to see it, nobody would be riding horses and bulls that could very easily injure them bad enough to cripple or kill. Personally I think that is the very reason people go to rodeos, to see someone get hurt.

I know people who go to NASCAR and other races just to see the crashes. Google the prices for pieces of the car that Dale Earnhardt Sr. died in.

I was in Cheyenne when Lane Frost was killed. U saw the reaction of the people in the stands, and in my opinion, it seemed that people relished the fact that they saw a man die, or get hurt, than anything else. I compared it to the drivers who slow down and look at an accident on the highway. The fascination of the possibility that someone died drives the actions of rubber neckers.

Hate it as much as you want, but until there is no spectators to watch these men and women ride these animals, it is going to continue. And that means that adrenalin junkies like myself are going to ride.

The US is a young nation, one that was built on the idea that Americans can do anything. We tamed the west at the cost of destroying cultures, hunting animals to the brink of extinction, and turning wild country into farms and ranches. The only people that claim to be civilized are the old money types back east who attend the Opera, have parties for the coming of age of wealthy daughters, ride horses with an English saddle while wearing tight pants, a jacket and a funky looking helmet.

The rest of us are the barbarian uncivilized rednecks, goat ropers, coal miners, and what not that did all the dirty work that the rest of country and a large chunk of the world need done to eat. To be honest, 99% of the people who eat meat dont want to think about where it came from, how it was raised, or anything more than the price in the grocery, its availability and what it looks like.

Compared to the UK, the US is an infant. The UK has what, 1700 years of civilization to look back on? People of Britannia so loved the roman lifestyle that they did there best to keep it after the Romans left.

The only ancient civilizations the Americas had never had a chance to get past the use of stone tools, Europeans showed up looking for riches, and the expedient thing to do was conquer.

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ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Okay, how much rough country do you have in the UK that you work cattle on? Just curious.

We moved to Texas when I was six, dad bought the land I was raised on when I was seven. I have been around horses and cattle most of my life.

You are telling me that you have never had a horse buck against a saddle the first time you put it on its back? You are telling me that you can just step into a saddle and ride the animal with it not fighting?

Never seen a horse that did not react negatively when a saddle was first put on it, or when weight was first put on its back. I would have to see it to believe it. sorry. And the horses actually want to jump or perform? Seriously? As I said, the natural instinct of horses are to eat, sleep, roam around and make baby horses. Horse like having things on their backs? Have the horses in the UK developed the ability to communicate and they have told you this? They want a rider on them? Considering the only talking horse I have ever seen was on tv or in the movies, and I really think that was faked, I just dont believe it.

I have never seen a horse leave a stall, walk to the tack room, open the tack room and push someone in to get saddle and bridle. I have seen many a horse try to get into the feed rooms. I have had horse allow themselves to be saddled, but I am quite sure, given a choice they would have much rather been in the paddock taking life easy.


But of the thousands of wild mustangs I have have been fortunate to participate in dealing with, I have never seen one with a high stepping gait or that seemed to go out of its way to jump. I have seen quite a few got batshit crazy over the nearness of a predator. I have seen many of those wild horses with scars on their backs and flanks from surviving an attack by something with claws. If bucking is not a defense, what pray tell did they do to get the large animal off their backs?

You said you worked with Arabians. Honestly I have never dealt with them. They are not common where I am from.

However, I do know some things about the breed. The vast majority, if not all, the breed is considered inbred. Now from what I have learned over the years studying history which of course dealt with royal families, it seemed that the closeness of the family lines led to genetic problems, like hemophilia, I assume that horses or any animal for that matter are not immune to genetically induced problems. Would that not be considered a form of abuse?

I know there are only six bloodlines in the Arabian breed. There are some problems with inbreeding, one is a lowered resistance to disease, another is undesirable traits showing up. Sorry but I do not see that as the ethical and morally superior treatment of a breed or animal. The risks to the future generations are cumulative, and the only way to prevent that is to introduce fresh blood, but then the animal is no longer an Arabian.

Lets look at some other traditions of the old country that are abusive, shall we?

Granted Great Britain and Scotland outlawed fox hunting, except under certain conditions, and basically outlawed dog hunting, again except for certain conditions, however a part of the UK still has fox hunting as a legal sport.

What about the practice of using beaters to hunt birds? How exactly is that a hunt? You have a bunch of people moving across the country side making god knows how much noise and scaring the birds from cover.

Here in the states we take a dog, go into a field and let the dog find one bird at a time, usually in groups of four hunters or less. That field may be full of game birds, but we sure as hell dont scare everyone of them to take flight so they can be shot en mass. Doesnt seem to be sporting, at least to me. Actually considering the size of pheasant and quail pr dove, I would think a shot gun would destroy more meat than the bird has.

But using beaters to create a target rich environment? Why not put a bunch of birds in a large cage and shoot em that way, they have just as much of a chance as using the beaters.

You talk about animal abuse and then claim to work with a breed of course that for all accounts are the most inbred of any horse species and call that humane.

and considering some of the traditions that either are still practiced or just recently made illegal, you folks really dont have much room to talk.

You call us barbaric, that is funny, because of the fact quite a bit of what we do is held over from the days you folks still had us as colonies. Some of the practices still used in the UK are, by all accounts, just as barbaric, see my thoughts on using beaters to flush birds.

You want to know a little truth, you cannot speak for every trainer, every breeder that deals with horses that are used in equestrian events. You cannot swear that the way you do it is the way everyone else does it. And neither you or I can speak for what a horse feels like doing at any given minute.