All the colors of the rainbow - from White to White (Full Version)

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Fightdirecto -> All the colors of the rainbow - from White to White (7/13/2013 6:30:54 AM)

I wonder what those counties who want to secede from Colorado and become a new state have in common?

Let me see now:

Kit Carson County – 94.8 % white; Logan County – 92.2 % white; Morgan County – 92.8 % white; Phillips County – 96.9 % white; Sedgewick County – 96.0 % white; Washington County – 96.2 % white; Weld County – 93.4 % white; Yuma County – 97.5 % white. Those who want Northeastern Colorado to secede from Colorado and form a 51 state “represent” a group wanting to form a state that will be on average 94.94 % white.

But, of course, it has nothing to do about race or White supremacy. Of course, there’s nothing racist about wanting to create a white state if it’s just an accident of ideology that everyone invested in its creation is white.

Yeah, right - if it waddles like a duck, has a bill and feathers like a duck and quacks like a duck, saying it’s not a duck, it’s really a moose doesn’t make it so.




Kirata -> RE: All the colors of the rainbow - from White to White (7/13/2013 6:47:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

But, of course, it has nothing to do about race or White supremacy.

Probably not much. In the 2010 census the population of Colorado was 81.3% white. And in the most recent (2006) county data that popped up in my search, out of 64 counties Kit Carson had the 12th highest black population and Weld the 9th highest mixed race population.

But hey, don't let me spoil your fun.

K.







DarkSteven -> RE: All the colors of the rainbow - from White to White (7/13/2013 6:54:42 AM)

There are two issues that the "seceding" counties have - gay marriage and especially gun control. In rural areas, guns are nothing more than tools, like a hammer. Plus, they live a distance away from local law enforcement and would be especially vulnerable to burglars, etc., because they're so isolated.

The entire state tends to have few African Americans. Colorado Springs (El Paso County) has some because of the military bases, but the rest of the state tends to be pretty white.

There are white supremacists everywhere. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the more rural areas have them, but no more than rural areas elsewhere.




Fightdirecto -> RE: All the colors of the rainbow - from White to White (7/13/2013 7:13:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

But, of course, it has nothing to do about race or White supremacy.

Probably not much. In the 2010 census the population of Colorado was 81.3% white. And in the most recent (2006) county data that popped up in my search, out of 64 counties Kit Carson had the 12th highest black population and Weld the 9th highest mixed race population.

But hey, don't let me spoil your fun.

K.

My father was born and raised on a ranch in Northwestern Colorado during the Depression. He was the 4th of 11 children, almost all of whom lived their entire lives in either Colorado or Wyoming. I myself lived in Colorado through most of the 1980s in Canon City, just south of Colorado Springs.

Aside from the various miltary bases, there are very few Blacks living in the state. In Colorado, White supremacy is more anti-Hispanic than anti-Black, ironic because many of the Hispanic population of Colorado can trace their ancestry back three or more generations living there, some having ancestors who were living in what is now Colorado before it was even a state or even a part of the United States. But all too many of the Whites (who may have moved to Colorado from another part of the U.S. or from a European country within the last 5 years) look at the local Hispanics and want them to "go back where they came from". They cannot accept in their hearts and minds that a White person in Colorado (or in any other state in the U.S.) cannot or should not control the local, state or federal government, simply because of their race.




OttersSwim -> RE: All the colors of the rainbow - from White to White (7/13/2013 7:25:20 AM)

Yea, no.

Living in Northern Colorado myself at this very moment and I can tell you that Steven is right. These counties citizens comprise mainly far right conservatives who are socially conservative and highly pro gun. Nothing to do with white vs. black - everything to do with Liberal vs. Conservative. There are several pieces of gun control legislation passed here recently that are causing an uproar within the rural communities in Colorado. What's more, Colorado has also just recently passed a same sex unions law and that is also causing those of a more conservative bent to feel discommoded.




Kirata -> RE: All the colors of the rainbow - from White to White (7/13/2013 7:26:16 AM)


Well okay, I won't argue with your experience in that regard. But I still don't see a case for claiming that the secession movement has anything to with racism. My understanding is that the motivating issue is gun rights.

K.




Fightdirecto -> RE: All the colors of the rainbow - from White to White (7/13/2013 7:28:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

Yea, no.

Living in Northern Colorado myself at this very moment and I can tell you that Steven is right. These counties citizens comprise mainly far right conservatives who are socially conservative and highly pro gun. Nothing to do with white vs. black - everything to do with Liberal vs. Conservative.

But if the Conservatives or the Whites are the minority of the overall voting population - should they be able to "pick up their ball and go home" i.e. secede?

And if the minority group is almost all White, does labelling themselves a "poor, put-upon Conservative minority" rather than a "poor, put-upon White minority" somehow completely eliminate the image of their racism?




OttersSwim -> RE: All the colors of the rainbow - from White to White (7/13/2013 7:42:41 AM)

Again it has nothing to do with race. It is about guns, fracking, and gay marriage in that order.

As for should they be able to do so...succession is not provided for in the Constitution, though I understand there is a process whereby the Governor of Colorado and the Legislature would have to approve the succession, and then it would have to go before Congress.

It is a fairly small but vocal group making these calls - even in conservative minded rural Northern Colorado. Weld County alone has more than 250,000 people living in it. The chances of it going anywhere are slim to none.




Hillwilliam -> RE: All the colors of the rainbow - from White to White (7/13/2013 9:12:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


Well okay, I won't argue with your experience in that regard. But I still don't see a case for claiming that the secession movement has anything to with racism. My understanding is that the motivating issue is gun rights.

K.


I wouldn't say "gun rights" so much as the whole neoconservative package.

The problem is that they seem to be very short sighted.
Let's assume that the state legislature lets them secede.
Do they have enough population to be considered for statehood?
Would Congress approve it?
Do they understand that they might just end up as an unrepresented territory?




Moonhead -> RE: All the colors of the rainbow - from White to White (7/13/2013 9:32:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

There are two issues that the "seceding" counties have - gay marriage and especially gun control. In rural areas, guns are nothing more than tools, like a hammer. Plus, they live a distance away from local law enforcement and would be especially vulnerable to burglars, etc., because they're so isolated.

This is true, but isn't all of the gun control talk about automatic rifles and handguns, rather than revolvers and shotguns, which are a lot handier for home defence in any case?




Hillwilliam -> RE: All the colors of the rainbow - from White to White (7/13/2013 9:47:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead




This is true, but isn't all of the gun control talk about automatic rifles and handguns, rather than revolvers and shotguns, which are a lot handier for home defence in any case?


It's semi-automatic rifles, not automatic. Automatic rifles are machine guns which can't be owned by John Q Public without jumping thru lots of fun hoops and paying license fees.

A revolver is a handgun.
Did you mean semi auto handgun?
I prefer them because there is typically less recoil so you can stay on target more easily.

There are also shotguns that are illegal to own in some areas.




OttersSwim -> RE: All the colors of the rainbow - from White to White (7/13/2013 9:48:17 AM)

It isn't the types of guns they are trying to control. It is that they are trying to control them at all. There are some folks who take a very literal interpretation of the phrase "shall not be infringed".




Moonhead -> RE: All the colors of the rainbow - from White to White (7/13/2013 10:26:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead




This is true, but isn't all of the gun control talk about automatic rifles and handguns, rather than revolvers and shotguns, which are a lot handier for home defence in any case?


It's semi-automatic rifles, not automatic. Automatic rifles are machine guns which can't be owned by John Q Public without jumping thru lots of fun hoops and paying license fees.

A revolver is a handgun.
Did you mean semi auto handgun?
I prefer them because there is typically less recoil so you can stay on target more easily.

There are also shotguns that are illegal to own in some areas.

I meant semi auto handguns, yep.




njlauren -> RE: All the colors of the rainbow - from White to White (7/13/2013 10:43:27 AM)

The way I take it looking at the whole hard right movement isn't so much as it is racist, as it is feeling like 'their' time has passed. Look at the people running the show at the GOP, and what you see is primarily rural, white folks from down south and the midwest farm belt (and Texas, of course, which I won't insult by grouping it with anyone else:). It isn't that gun ownership, or same sex marriage, or fracking, aren't real issues, they are, but the underlying thing driving this is the feeling that they no longer count. Farm bills, for example, that provide all kinds of benefits to the agricultural states, have always been kind of slam dunks, even though it has been a really long time since the country could be called agricultural (agriculture accounts for 2.5% of employment and I think it is about 10% of our GDP). The GOP is attempting to ramrod a farm bill through and get it passed by the Senate that took out the food stamps provisions, and it is highly unlikely it will pass the Senate, in part because the rest of the country are saying why are we paying farmers not to farm? Why are we paying farmers subsidies when commodity prices are high? Why are we paying people who own farmland who don't even farm? It never was a struggle to get these through, now it is difficult (and in some ways, the farmers are getting back their own; many of them support the Tea Party idea of slashing government spending that subsidizes people, as they say, there is a poor sword that doesn't cut both ways).

You hear it in the rhetoric of the anti immigration people, how "they" are taking "our" America away, and it isn't just about immigration. These are people used to getting their own way; a number of years ago, Colorado passed laws, primarily because of the areas like this, banning any laws protecting gays with civil rights protections that the Supreme Court later threw out as being unconstitutional, since it singled out gays alone for not being allowed these protections. For many years, their attitudes towards gays were not that far off the mainstream, today they are in a diminishing minority. For many years, they could look around and see white representatives, white senators, white governors and until Obama, a white, male president, 98.5% protestant. They also realize that their attitude towards guns doesn't reflect the experiences of the overwhelming majority of people who live in city or suburban areas, and that they are losing the battle that allows gun ownership to be like buying a hammer and nails (a pretty good analogy by that poster). They also fear the loss of the money the government spends in rural areas, that has helped keep them going, whether it is farm price supports and subsidies, or money for other things like electric power generated at cost by federal dams or water projects and so forth.

It is also looking to the past, when even in rural areas people could generally find a decent job, which isn't true any more. Rural areas are dying, their young people leave to go to the more settled areas, and main street is dying. There is a really good article about Mitch McConnell in the NY Times, and it profiles a town that used to be a stronghold of his, Paducah, KY, that had as its largest employer a nuclear fuel plant, and McConnell was known for bringing home the bacon for other things as well.....the town was once a job center for the region, now it is in serious decline as many other small towns are.

The idea is if they secede, they can create a state that represents 'us', 'real americans' whatever you want to call it. Fundamentally, it is also the clash between a culture that is more and more diverse and has learned to value it, or at least tolerate it, and the part that fears change, fears anything but what they always believed was the truth. In reality, same sex marriage, for example, doesn't do anything to their marriages, yet to them it is an affront if the law allows someone to marry who they don't like (which is in effect saying I know what is true, what is real, and the law should reflect that).

Some issues like gun control and fracking are real; the rural areas see fracking as a way to revitalize their economy, as it has done in other areas, other people worry about the environmental concerns of fracking and are worried what it will do to the ecology and so forth, and I can understand both sides of that. With gun control, when guns are a part of your daily life, you may not understand why people want to regulate them, or if crazy enough, think you are going to 'fight the government', in part because they don't see the consequences of allowing guns to be sold easily, that some people in rural areas buy guns by the trunkload and sell them into the black market, and there is nothing to stop them from doing it, since the law presently has no consequences for doing so.

The idea of secession is also a national eye, too.If North Colorado became a state, it would add to the GOP count in the house, and more importantly, would give it 2 senators, adding to the GOP side of the house, which in turn could promise gravy coming from Washington with a strengthened GOP majority in the house and a weakened Dem majority in the Senate.

In many ways, too, it is nostalgia, that they can carve out their own chunk of 1950's America for themselves.

And of course, those seceding probably are not thinking of the consequences, what it would mean to have to pay for a lot more things that currently is a shared burden in the entire state, roads, schools, etc....or how the federal aid picture would shift were they to secede, or what the burden going down the road might be to pay for the fracking they want, the costs in pollution and such....a tiny state with 500,000 people or less is not going to get the same aid they do today as part of a more populous state, and they may find suddenly they are paying a lot more than they used to.




DarkSteven -> RE: All the colors of the rainbow - from White to White (7/13/2013 11:46:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

Again it has nothing to do with race. It is about guns, fracking, and gay marriage in that order.



Yeah, I forgot about fracking. Thanks for bringing that issue up, Otter.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

But if the Conservatives or the Whites are the minority of the overall voting population - should they be able to "pick up their ball and go home" i.e. secede?



I'm wrestling with this one. I'm getting very alarmed at gerrymandering to form homogeneous areas. Basically, we have areas that will elect a Dem 99+% of the time, and areas that will elect a Republican 99+% of the time. The Congresspeople from these areas will simply follow the party line and refuse to work with the other side, and we get gridlock and fingerpointing, and negative campaigning.

I'd love to see some redistricting that will ensure more balanced areas, and force electees to be responsive to their people rather than lockstep ideologies.





MasterCaneman -> RE: All the colors of the rainbow - from White to White (7/13/2013 2:56:33 PM)

Perhaps its time to outlaw redistricting? Yeah, I know, it's never gonna happen. Well, if there's going to be a North Colorado, there should also be a State of Niagara. Has a nice ring to it, don't you think?




vincentML -> RE: All the colors of the rainbow - from White to White (7/13/2013 3:58:02 PM)

FR

Secession? A moot point. That issue was settled in 1865. Just so much blather.




DaddySatyr -> RE: All the colors of the rainbow - from White to White (7/13/2013 4:13:22 PM)

Being a fan and student of the War of Northern Aggression, there's a movie with which I'm familiar that has a great explanation about secession.

The name of the movie is "Gettysburg" and one of the characters likens the US to a gentlemen's club. Please remember; this was 1863 and they weren't talking about strippers (although, I guess whores were a possibility).



Peace and comfort,



Michael




dcnovice -> RE: All the colors of the rainbow - from White to White (7/13/2013 4:27:08 PM)

quote:

I'd love to see some redistricting that will ensure more balanced areas, and force electees to be responsive to their people rather than lockstep ideologies.

Agreed. One step would be having nonpartisan geographers handle it instead of party hacks.




MrRodgers -> RE: All the colors of the rainbow - from White to White (7/13/2013 5:35:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Being a fan and student of the War of Northern Aggression, there's a movie with which I'm familiar that has a great explanation about secession.

The name of the movie is "Gettysburg" and one of the characters likens the US to a gentlemen's club. Please remember; this was 1863 and they weren't talking about strippers (although, I guess whores were a possibility).



Peace and comfort,



Michael


Yea, I've always wondered how it got the name...'War of Northern Aggression.' Especially when I think about 6 states at least...seceded before Lincoln's was even inaugurated. Then within weeks of that, the south fired the first shot when they fired on Fort Sumter.

As for the OP. I think it is issues based that then reveal a certain demographic. So after looking at all of the issues, one can say that opposition to the issues seems to be mostly white, then erroneously draw conclusions based on race when maybe...it is not.




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