RE: Big Bank speculating adds $10 per fill-up (Full Version)

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DesideriScuri -> RE: Big Bank speculating adds $10 per fill-up (7/21/2013 6:02:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
That means that all users, i.e., big oil and commodity users such as big agriculture, suffer and must hedge against this speculation in the price of their commodity. Once the speculators stop and the selling starts. this causes the price to fall...often precipitously. Those who got in early make money, those who got in late or last, have either hedged the price and make money, break even, lose less or...lose their shirts.


Dotcom bubble... Real Estate bubble... the US economy sounds pretty much like an old-school percolator...

quote:

As for buying beer in plastic bottles, the the price of oil will go up as plastics are made using petrochemicals. When it comes to food or manufacturing commodities...there is no escape.


Back to glass, everybody! Buy it in glass. Drink it from a glass. Yes, there will be more fuel used to melt the glass, but there will be lower demand for the plastics. Plastics being significantly lower yield from a barrel of oil, it could have a reducing effect on overall demand for oil.

Okay, I admit I'm hedging. Many local companies where I am are in the glass and glass bottle biz. A return to glass would only help my locale and many, many friends' job security.




Edwynn -> RE: Big Bank speculating adds $10 per fill-up (7/21/2013 6:10:40 AM)

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JeffBC -> RE: Big Bank speculating adds $10 per fill-up (7/21/2013 6:48:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana
Yeah, but it's also highly suggestive of how banks have diversified and now control vertical supply chains.

Vertical supply chains like "the government"?? I should think that both "too big to fail" and "too big to jail" were clear evidence of that.

Money runs America not politicians, not presidents, not votes, not any of that stuff.




tj444 -> RE: Big Bank speculating adds $10 per fill-up (7/21/2013 7:48:56 AM)

FR-

supposedly the govt is looking into this.. we will see what happens (I am not holding my breath tho)..

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-20/fed-reviews-rule-on-big-banks-commodity-trades-after-complaints.html




pahunkboy -> RE: Big Bank speculating adds $10 per fill-up (7/21/2013 7:53:42 AM)

I love Termy- he is one guy that can carry a conversation.


Totally agree with Glass-Steagall. A hand full of states trying it at local level.




tj444 -> RE: Big Bank speculating adds $10 per fill-up (7/21/2013 7:57:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I admit I'm hedging.


I am hedging too.. I am saving all my glass pickle jars.. [;)]




pahunkboy -> RE: Big Bank speculating adds $10 per fill-up (7/21/2013 8:54:55 AM)

hedge funds can now advertise- but why would they?

GS has 4000 corporate shells.

Recently they been rigging the electricity market.




JeffBC -> RE: Big Bank speculating adds $10 per fill-up (7/21/2013 9:50:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-20/fed-reviews-rule-on-big-banks-commodity-trades-after-complaints.html

ROFL.... "holding your breath?" That implies there was even some distant hope that this was feasible. I think we all know that there is no law if you are a banker.




tj444 -> RE: Big Bank speculating adds $10 per fill-up (7/21/2013 11:18:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-20/fed-reviews-rule-on-big-banks-commodity-trades-after-complaints.html

ROFL.... "holding your breath?" That implies there was even some distant hope that this was feasible. I think we all know that there is no law if you are a banker.

oh silly me.. I am lacking sleep and obviously not thinking clearly.. that's my excuse!!!.. [:D]




DesideriScuri -> RE: Big Bank speculating adds $10 per fill-up (7/22/2013 9:48:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
China should speculate in oil because they use so much of it. Really it drives up the price a bit but then they get some of that profit.
Almost like hedging a bet. And if oil goes down (fat chance), so what ? It's like they regulate their own price. The difference is that in the US the taxpayers take all the loss and private investors take all the gain. Communism is a bit different.
T^T


Perhaps it's not just oil?

LINK

    quote:

    The USGS and Department of Energy are on a nationwide scramble for deposits of the elements that make magnets lighter, bring balanced hues to fluorescent lighting and color to the touch screens of smartphones in order to break the Chinese stranglehold on those supplies.


Nah, China wouldn't buy something up for any reason other than just for use. No way that would happen. [8|]




MrRodgers -> RE: Big Bank speculating adds $10 per fill-up (7/22/2013 10:16:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

quote:

Oil companies and big agra. actually hate this as they too become slave to the speculators.


Not sure where this comes from. The oil companies have been in the derivatives game for some years now. They'd be stupid not to.

http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc5106/

Given the diversification benefit of crude oil mixed with equities, this study then examines the value effect of crude oil derivatives transactions by oil and gas producers. Differing from traditional corporate risk management literature, this study examines corporate derivatives transactions from the shareholders' portfolio perspective. The results show that crude oil derivatives transactions by oil and gas producers do impact value. If oil and gas producing companies stop shorting crude oil derivatives contracts, company stock prices increase significantly. In contrast, if oil and gas producing companies start shorting crude oil derivatives contracts, stock prices drop marginally significantly. Thus, hedging by producers is not necessarily good.

And then this:

http://thinkprogress.org/report/koch-oil-speculation/?mobile=nc


– October 6, 1986: First oil derivative is introduced to Wall Street by traders at Koch. Koch Industries executive Lawrence Kitchen devised the “first ever oil-indexed price swap between Koch Industries and Chase Manhattan Bank.” At the time, such derivatives had been limited to currency markets, and the shift of creating a synthetic financial instrument based on the value of crude oil was revolutionary. For an agreed-upon period, an oil swap is a contract where one party makes payments based on a fixed oil price, and the other party makes payments back based on the changing spot price of oil. In July of 2009, EnergyRisk magazine, a publication for commodity traders, posted a piece exploring the very first oil derivatives and Koch’s role in developing them.

– 1990-1992: Koch, along with several oil companies and Wall Street speculators, form a coalition lobbying group to deregulate oil speculation. A coalition called “The Energy Group” is organized to press the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) to allow oil derivatives to be traded off the NYMEX or any other regulated exchange. Participants in the coalition include Koch, Enron, Phibro (a powerful commodity speculator firm recently sold from Citigroup to Occidental Petroleum), J. Aron & Co (a commodity trading division of Goldman Sachs), BP, and other companies. -


Of course the oil companies can suffer a loss on derivatives if taking the wrong side of the futures bet on occasion, but in that event they more than make up for it on the production and refining side of it.

Antonia Juatz's excellent book, The Tyranny Of Oil goes into this in significant detail.

I mean, it's not as though the four oil companies in composition of the first ten of the Fortune 500 are going to just stand idly by, wringing hands and gnashing teeth, as punk-ass hedge funds have fun with them.

That's not going to happen.

Derivatives are merely a form of insurance against losses. A futures contract is the paper purchase of the commodity itself. I buy a futures contract for oil at say $100/bbl. and sell it a month later at $105/bbl. I've profited $5/bbl. Obviously the risk is the futures price, the price reflected on the exchanges just like stocks in the exchanges...could go down. I need to hedge against this.

I buy an oil derivative as insurance against that price drop and will not even need it if the price of oil goes up. A 'put' option on a stock is very similar in that if the price goes down to a certain predetermined level...the owner of the put now must buy my stock at that price.

So an oil derivative insures against a price drop risk in my oil futures...nothing more. So now we have two reasons why actual users such as big oil and big agra...hate these instruments all only necessary because of the speculation in these products far too easily done via paper without actually taking delivery or handling the product.

So I need to get in on the futures speculation to hedge the value of my inventory upon which my profit and taxes are computed. Then I buy a derivative to...hedge against my hedge. The actual spread between prices and hedges creates yet another speculation in the value of the derivative. Hence the desire of many big money movers to do what...create yet another exchange of derivative or a piece of paper upon which...to even further speculate.

All of this is only necessary because it can be accomplished simply by purchasing paper...my original point in needing to tax the turning that paper...into money.




SimplyMichael -> RE: Big Bank speculating adds $10 per fill-up (7/22/2013 11:18:47 AM)

Capitalism in the good sense of the word SHOULD be about creating goods, creating wealth.

As done today, capitalism is about capturing the wealth of others through financial manipulation which destroys wealth.

Wealth being defined as the goose that lays the golden egg.

I sell solar leases in California. Even here, in the land of $700,000 3 bdrm suburban homes, the wealth of the older people is clearly NOT being replicated by the younger generation. The older generation saw those cheap suburban homes BECOME $700,000 homes, the young are dumb enough to be paying $4,000 mortgage payments and another $1,500 a month in car and insurance payments and they are unlikey to ever see that sort of equity growth. And those people are luckier than most americans.

Yeah, the financial classes are just leaches and need to be excised. So, the liberals will worry about redwoods and the right will worry about abortion and nothing will change.




MrRodgers -> RE: Big Bank speculating adds $10 per fill-up (7/22/2013 4:00:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Capitalism in the good sense of the word SHOULD be about creating goods, creating wealth.

As done today, capitalism is about capturing the wealth of others through financial manipulation which destroys wealth.

Wealth being defined as the goose that lays the golden egg.

I sell solar leases in California. Even here, in the land of $700,000 3 bdrm suburban homes, the wealth of the older people is clearly NOT being replicated by the younger generation. The older generation saw those cheap suburban homes BECOME $700,000 homes, the young are dumb enough to be paying $4,000 mortgage payments and another $1,500 a month in car and insurance payments and they are unlikey to ever see that sort of equity growth. And those people are luckier than most americans.

Yeah, the financial classes are just leaches and need to be excised. So, the liberals will worry about redwoods and the right will worry about abortion and nothing will change.

Well I prefer to call what you describe as free enterprise, not capitalism. I define capitalism as turning paper into money. I define the capitalist as one who will take any steps to make that paper more valuable and as risk free as possible. So contrary to popular belief, and to use your example, as a capitalist I want FHA (govt.) to take care of that $700,000 mortgage and flat out love Fannie or Freddie (govt.) for buying it.

If those things don't happen, I as a risk averse paper-trading speculator, would not be in the home bldg, business and just be glad I picked the right parents.




Edwynn -> RE: Big Bank speculating adds $10 per fill-up (7/22/2013 9:25:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Derivatives are merely a form of insurance against losses. A futures contract is the paper purchase of the commodity itself.


It might or might not be, for an actual producer or consumer of the commodity in question. It most certainly is not such a thing for the speculator. Some futures are settled on a daily basis. That is, money is transferred from one side of the bet to the other as the spot price changes vs. the strike price in the contract. Anyone can buy a futures contract, a forward, a put or call option, with out having to deliver or take delivery of the underlying or referenced asset in question.


quote:

So now we have two reasons why actual users such as big oil and big agra...hate these instruments all only necessary because of the speculation in these products far too easily done via paper without actually taking delivery or handling the product.


So why did Koch Bros invent them, then? They had/have a large position in refineries is why. Futures on commodities have been around since post-mid 19th century. They were the first to recognize the asymmetrical information advantage to enhance profits from the speculation. They actively invited the dupes into the party, but congratulations to the few that could find a sucker counter party to whatever bet.

quote:

So I need to get in on the futures speculation to hedge the value of my inventory upon which my profit and taxes are computed. Then I buy a derivative to...hedge against my hedge. The actual spread between prices and hedges creates yet another speculation in the value of the derivative. Hence the desire of many big money movers to do what...create yet another exchange of derivative or a piece of paper upon which...to even further speculate.


I would 'speculate' that ExxonMobile, which ranks highest in profit year upon year, roughly twice the profit of no. 2 Microsoft, can afford to hire all the quants they need to deal with the situation.

Exxon is as big a money mover as any of them, and to be crass, blunt, etc., they wouldn't swamp the rest of the corporate world twice over in profits by just sitting idly by and hoping for the best from dimwit hedge traders.

The largest oil companies have the insider information from both the supply and the demand side, being as that they control marketing and distribution. The successful commodities traders anticipate, but they sure as heck don't lead.

The oil companies shut down three hundred of their refineries (in the US) in twenty years, for purpose of self-obtained price support. They can shut down or start up production at will, almost immediately counteracting any emergence that might arise against their favor. Speculative behavior adverse to the oil companies' interests is easily dealt with in short order, and certainly has been.

Tell me how many speculators can do that. And tell me how the producers and the refineries they operate can't change the situation in three days. Which, if you actually buy gasoline, is apparent on a near-weekly basis.

The buyers of fuel, for their business, get into futures for their own meager protection, and I'm sure some of them don't like the situation,
but they are the ones who suffer from the shenanigans of both the producer/seller and the speculators.

It is the purchasers of fuel, not the producers, that suffer from the 'financial innovation' aspect of what should be a relatively simple process of an otherwise simple 'value added' chain of commerce.






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