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RE: IRS Scandal Reaches Whitehouse - 7/26/2013 7:59:49 AM   
graceadieu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I thought voter ID laws, these days were just aimed at keeping non-citizens and dead people from voting.


I think, for a lot of people, that really is why they support it. But the effect of voter ID laws is to disenfranchise many poor people, students, and elderly people - and I'm sure that, for at least some people backing these bills, that's the whole point.

Voter fraud, in the sense of illegal immigrants voting or people voting twice, is extremely rare. Problems like bribery, misinformation, or not providing sufficient polling places is much more common, and voter ID laws won't fix that.

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RE: IRS Scandal Reaches Whitehouse - 7/26/2013 8:13:23 AM   
graceadieu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I am not opposed, nor would I think anyone left or right be opposed to voter ID, so long as the ones that want it pay for it lock and stock and barrel.


Right. I don't think it would be a problem, IF states were willing to make it free, convenient and easy for people to get voter IDs.

Where I live, the county MVA's only open 8:30-4:30 Monday-Friday and Saturday mornings, is a mile from the nearest bus stop, and a lot of the small towns have no public transit anyway. So people without a car or who can't take time off of work may have no way to get there.

If places going to require voter ID, they need to send some guys out at all hours to provide voter IDs at nursing homes, colleges, rural areas, apartment complexes with a lot of low-income residents, etc.

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RE: IRS Scandal Reaches Whitehouse - 7/26/2013 8:52:44 AM   
papassion


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No problem! Have the Welfare offices issue Photo IDs. People don't seem to have any problems getting there. Just wondering, how do people, especially in the bigger cities, cash welfare checks, or ANY check without a photo ID?

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RE: IRS Scandal Reaches Whitehouse - 7/26/2013 8:54:25 AM   
Powergamz1


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You seriously don't know, do you?


quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion


No problem! Have the Welfare offices issue Photo IDs. People don't seem to have any problems getting there. Just wondering, how do people, especially in the bigger cities, cash welfare checks, or ANY check without a photo ID?



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RE: IRS Scandal Reaches Whitehouse - 7/26/2013 9:01:31 AM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I thought voter ID laws, these days were just aimed at keeping non-citizens and dead people from voting.


I think, for a lot of people, that really is why they support it. But the effect of voter ID laws is to disenfranchise many poor people, students, and elderly people - and I'm sure that, for at least some people backing these bills, that's the whole point.

Voter fraud, in the sense of illegal immigrants voting or people voting twice, is extremely rare. Problems like bribery, misinformation, or not providing sufficient polling places is much more common, and voter ID laws won't fix that.


Voter fraud is *not* extremely rare. It is extremely unexamined. Pennsylvania's Ed Rendell admitted that more than 100,000 votes in PA were fraudulent.

64 voting precincts had not a single vote for Romney in Pa.
65 voting precints had not a single vote for Romney in Ohio.

Vote buying and fraud is endemic in Miami - where it happens so often that they have a name for the people that deliver votes.
Investigations into acorn show that they destroyed tens of thousands of voter registrations that were not likely to be democratic voters.
Republican Poll watchers were thrown out of polls, and had to be reinstated with police escorts.



< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 7/26/2013 9:06:42 AM >

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RE: IRS Scandal Reaches Whitehouse - 7/26/2013 9:04:32 AM   
Phydeaux


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Back to the IRS Scandal

"But that is not what's happening. House investigators this week said they have in fact received less than 1% of the documents they have been asking for from the agency. The IRS itself at one point identified a whopping and rather intimidating 65 million documents that might be relevant to the tea-party scandal. To date—almost three months into the scandal became public—the House Ways and Means Committee says the IRS has turned over only 13,000 pages. And some of them were duplicates.

It's gone beyond what staff aides were, last month, calling "slow walking." Chairman Dave Camp said in a statement the IRS's actions look "a lot like obstruction." One aide said: "Patience is wearing thin."

Meanwhile, investigations continue, interviews are ongoing. Congressional investigators believe they have picked up an unusual amount of checking in with and requesting approval and guidance from the office of the IRS general counsel. They also believe they are picking up an intense level of decision making between that office and Lois Lerner, former head of the exempt organizations office. The committee is particularly interested in all correspondence and communications between the general counsel's office, the Treasury Department, and the White House."

(in reply to Phydeaux)
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RE: IRS Scandal Reaches Whitehouse - 7/26/2013 9:04:55 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion


No problem! Have the Welfare offices issue Photo IDs. People don't seem to have any problems getting there. Just wondering, how do people, especially in the bigger cities, cash welfare checks, or ANY check without a photo ID?



Not for voting, that would be taxpayer money. No poll taxes. Not constitutional.

_____________________________

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RE: IRS Scandal Reaches Whitehouse - 7/26/2013 9:07:17 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I am not opposed, nor would I think anyone left or right be opposed to voter ID, so long as the ones that want it pay for it lock and stock and barrel.


Right. I don't think it would be a problem, IF states were willing to make it free, convenient and easy for people to get voter IDs.

Where I live, the county MVA's only open 8:30-4:30 Monday-Friday and Saturday mornings, is a mile from the nearest bus stop, and a lot of the small towns have no public transit anyway. So people without a car or who can't take time off of work may have no way to get there.

If places going to require voter ID, they need to send some guys out at all hours to provide voter IDs at nursing homes, colleges, rural areas, apartment complexes with a lot of low-income residents, etc.


No, no states. No government entity expenditure at all. It is unconstitutional, it is a poll tax.


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: IRS Scandal Reaches Whitehouse - 7/26/2013 9:10:07 AM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion


No problem! Have the Welfare offices issue Photo IDs. People don't seem to have any problems getting there. Just wondering, how do people, especially in the bigger cities, cash welfare checks, or ANY check without a photo ID?



Not for voting, that would be taxpayer money. No poll taxes. Not constitutional.



Fortunately, the supreme court has already said, definitively that you are wrong. So why do you continue to spew falsehood?

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: IRS Scandal Reaches Whitehouse - 7/26/2013 9:21:33 AM   
mnottertail


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Cite it, because no such thing has occurred. If you read Stevens, referring to it, ( I assume shelby county here since you have no site) see his peroration regarding adversary system.

It is one of those where they will not pick every little case, but someone will challenge (as he said a little up from that, AFTER THE FACT, where there is a standing) on poll tax.



_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: IRS Scandal Reaches Whitehouse - 7/26/2013 9:22:05 AM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion


No problem! Have the Welfare offices issue Photo IDs. People don't seem to have any problems getting there. Just wondering, how do people, especially in the bigger cities, cash welfare checks, or ANY check without a photo ID?



Not for voting, that would be taxpayer money. No poll taxes. Not constitutional.


Fortunately, the supreme court has already said, definitively that you are wrong. So why do you continue to spew falsehood?


As a tax payer, I would have NO PROBLEM if a part of the money I paid for people to live on the dole were used to make sure that UNITED STATES CITIZENS could vote. No problem, what-so-ever.

That means no one on any "guest worker program" (They're already stealing our jobs)

No one who's here, illegally.

No foreign students (who, ostensibly, are just going back home, when they're schooling is done and therefore, don't have a vested interest in how this country is run).



John Q. Public


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RE: IRS Scandal Reaches Whitehouse - 7/26/2013 9:27:02 AM   
mnottertail


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Yeah, I think we are giving away too much of our constitution for this shit already.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: IRS Scandal Reaches Whitehouse - 7/26/2013 9:30:17 AM   
cloudboy


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quote:

64 voting precincts had not a single vote for Romney in Pa.
65 voting precints had not a single vote for Romney in Ohio.


What does that have to do with Voter ID laws? That's people not voting or a problem with the count. There have been about zero cases of VOTER fraud by individuals going to vote.

http://www.gocomics.com/doonesbury/2013/07/03

http://www.gocomics.com/doonesbury/2013/07/04

http://www.gocomics.com/doonesbury/2013/07/05

http://www.gocomics.com/doonesbury/2013/07/06



(in reply to Phydeaux)
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RE: IRS Scandal Reaches Whitehouse - 7/26/2013 9:32:25 AM   
mnottertail


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There are millions of people (probably quakers or shakers) who would never vote for a man with magic underpants, I didn't.


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: IRS Scandal Reaches Whitehouse - 7/26/2013 11:05:17 AM   
papassion


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ATTENTION! New talking points from Liberal Central! Forget all about Obama HIMSELF giving speeches how we have to correct the scandal at the IRS. Forget that the IRS THEMSELVES admitted to giving extra grief to Conservatives. Forget that IRS employees were told by their lawyers that they might be in deep shit and to invoke the 5th. Forget the spying, forget Bengazzi.

The NEW line is: What scandal? And say it often!!! Pass sit on to all Liberal groups!

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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: IRS Scandal Reaches Whitehouse - 7/26/2013 11:07:38 AM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I thought voter ID laws, these days were just aimed at keeping non-citizens and dead people from voting.


I think, for a lot of people, that really is why they support it. But the effect of voter ID laws is to disenfranchise many poor people, students, and elderly people - and I'm sure that, for at least some people backing these bills, that's the whole point.

Voter fraud, in the sense of illegal immigrants voting or people voting twice, is extremely rare. Problems like bribery, misinformation, or not providing sufficient polling places is much more common, and voter ID laws won't fix that.


Voter fraud is *not* extremely rare. It is extremely unexamined. Pennsylvania's Ed Rendell admitted that more than 100,000 votes in PA were fraudulent.

64 voting precincts had not a single vote for Romney in Pa.
65 voting precints had not a single vote for Romney in Ohio.

Vote buying and fraud is endemic in Miami - where it happens so often that they have a name for the people that deliver votes.
Investigations into acorn show that they destroyed tens of thousands of voter registrations that were not likely to be democratic voters.
Republican Poll watchers were thrown out of polls, and had to be reinstated with police escorts.



But Rendell and the rest have no evidence.

However we do have evidence from South Carolina.
http://www.ajc.com/weblogs/jay-bookman/2013/jul/09/south-carolina-another-vote-fraud-case-collapses/

In short a Republican sleaze claimed over 900 dead people voted in the 2010 election and therefore ridiculous restrictions on citizens exercising their franchise had to be put into place. The South Carolina Law Enforcement Division investigated and found not a single case of a dead person voting.

There simply is no evidence at all of widespread vote fraud and therefore these attempts to restrict the exercise of the franchise is a naked power grab by a party that can see the demographic handwriting on the wall. The Republicans know they can't win a free and fair election where all citizens are free to vote so they must prevent as many people who don't agree with them from voting.


< Message edited by DomKen -- 7/26/2013 11:09:53 AM >

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RE: IRS Scandal Reaches Whitehouse - 7/26/2013 11:07:52 AM   
Phydeaux


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CRAWFORD ET AL. v. MARION COUNTY ELECTION
BOARD ET AL.

[H]owever, we [have] confirmed the general rule that "evenhanded restrictions that protect the integrity and reliability of the electoral process itself" are not invidious.

In this case, which was a direct challenge of Indiana's Voter ID law, the court by a 6-3 margin rejected the claim that voter id's are, in themselves, unconstitutional.


Justice Stevens quoted at length from that report, thus providing a rare example of such a bipartisan commission coming to some good. He also cited the two recent federal enactments on voting procedures.He also noted that there was sufficient evidence that voter fraud happens to justify the state in trying to prevent it

Regarding the IDs Stevens continued
"Moreover, the interest in orderly administration and accurate recordkeeping provides a sufficient justification for carefully identifying all voters participating in the election process. While the most effective method of preventing election fraud may well be debatable, the propriety of doing so is perfectly clear."

Regarding it being unduly burdensome, the majority opinion:
"For most voters who need them, the inconvenience of making a trip to the BMV, gathering the required documents, and posing for a photograph surely does not qualify as a substantial burden on the right to vote, or even represent a significant increase over the usual burdens of voting."

http://archive.redstate.com/stories/the_courts/breaking_supreme_court_rejects_challenge_to_indiana_voter_id_law

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Cite it, because no such thing has occurred. If you read Stevens, referring to it, ( I assume shelby county here since you have no site) see his peroration regarding adversary system.

It is one of those where they will not pick every little case, but someone will challenge (as he said a little up from that, AFTER THE FACT, where there is a standing) on poll tax.




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RE: IRS Scandal Reaches Whitehouse - 7/26/2013 11:18:33 AM   
DaddySatyr


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Come on! The Supremes are not a credible source!



Regards,



Chris Matthews


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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: IRS Scandal Reaches Whitehouse - 7/26/2013 11:21:05 AM   
mnottertail


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While the most effective method of preventing election fraud may well be debatable, the propriety of doing so is perfectly clear.


a court must identify and evaluate the interests put forward by the State as justifications for the burden imposed by its rule, and then make the "hard judgment" that our adversary system demands.

The burdens that are relevant to the issue before us are those imposed on persons who are eligible to vote but do not possess a current photo identification that complies with the requirements of SEA 483.16 The fact that most voters already possess a valid driver's license, or some other form of acceptable identification, would not save the statute under our reasoning in Harper, if the State required voters to pay a tax or a fee to obtain a new photo identification. But just as other States provide free voter registration cards, the photo identification cards issued by Indiana's BMV are also free. For most voters who need them, the inconvenience of making a trip to the BMV, gathering the required documents, and posing for a photograph surely does not qualify as a substantial burden on the right to vote, or even represent a significant increase over the usual burdens of voting.
Both evidence in the record and facts of which we may take judicial notice, however, indicate that a somewhat heavier burden may be placed on a limited number of persons. They include elderly persons born out-of-state, who may have difficulty obtaining a birth certificate; persons who because of economic or other personal limitations may find it difficult either to secure a copy of their birth certificate or to assemble the other required documentation to obtain a state-issued identification; homeless persons; and persons with a religious objection to being photographed. If we assume, as the evidence suggests, that some members of these classes were registered voters when SEA 483 was enacted, the new identification requirement may have imposed a special burden on their right to vote.
The severity of that burden is, of course, mitigated by the fact that, if eligible, voters without photo identification may cast provisional ballots that will ultimately be counted. To do so, however, they must travel to the circuit court clerk’s office within 10 days to execute the required affidavit. It is unlikely that such a requirement would pose a constitutional problem unless it is wholly unjustified. And even assuming that the burden may not be justified as to a few voters, that conclusion is by no means sufficient to establish petitioners’ right to the relief they seek in this litigation.


So, no ruling on poll tax and actually a carefully constructed opinion that says that since there is no cost to the guys who got the id, (which is obviously wrong and will be argued in depth at some point) that there is a very wide door open here---for argument --- And even assuming that the burden may not be justified as to a few voters----(and he goes on to fundamentally say that the petitioner's have no standing in this case for that reason...it ain't gonna be included in this opinion)



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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: IRS Scandal Reaches Whitehouse - 7/26/2013 12:13:28 PM   
graceadieu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

64 voting precincts had not a single vote for Romney in Pa.
65 voting precints had not a single vote for Romney in Ohio.


What does that have to do with Voter ID laws? That's people not voting or a problem with the count. There have been about zero cases of VOTER fraud by individuals going to vote.


Right, exactly. Fraud does exist, in terms of issues with vote counting - though it doesn't happen as often the losing party in the race thinks it does. (And I'm not being partisan there - I definitely remember lots of Democrats complaining about it when Bush won the second time, too.) And voter registration sometimes can be a problem, when some guy that's getting paid per registrant decides to pad their registration count with fake names or records of dead people.

Requiring an ID at the poll won't fix either of those problems.

< Message edited by graceadieu -- 7/26/2013 12:14:39 PM >

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 80
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