RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!!

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (Full Version)

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epiphiny43 -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/23/2013 3:34:49 PM)
Whatever the actual facts, the floaters were/are too dumb to breed if they start arguing with an agitated person holding a firearm when there is a clear and accessible path away from the person and the confrontation. "Sorry, Dude, our mistake, we're out of here." is the intelligent response. Opps, forgot, beer is involved. Skunks and bears don't get this male entitlement behavior and hand guns trump either in my book. I'm unclear about the thinking of anyone who brings rocks to a gun fight expecting to do anything besides escalate the violence level of a previously verbal only confrontation, to his regret. Seems everyone involved acutely disappointed their ancestors?

Powergamz1 -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/23/2013 3:36:38 PM)
He backed away, so that's SYG? Would it be too much to ask for people to at least learn the most basic definitions? And where did you find the quote from 'the shooter himself' saying "I was not being attacked"? quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: One guy was holding a rock, the other tried to push the gun hand away - so says the article The guy had rocks in his hands but not arms up to throw...The man shot in the middle was trying to stop the man with the rocks from getting shot not attacking the shooter...all this on the gravel bar NOT his exclusive land..So I do not see where it changes anything but murder. The shooter himself said he stepped back away and was free and not being attacked then he shot the guy in the face. But at least unlike the Zimmerman case there were witnesses. I still think he will use the STG law in Missouri and I still think this very law enabled the shooter in the same way the SYG law enabled Zimmerman...Guns and laws giving the OK to use them without proper safeguards are a prescription for more murders. Butch

Powergamz1 -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/23/2013 3:37:53 PM)
That's all straw. quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie One thing I find disturbing is the total lack of any logic applied to situations such as these. The only info anyone has to go on is that in the OP. Yet, we go from pushing the gun hand away to trying to grab the gun. From one guy holding a rock, perhaps, and not inconceivably, because a man with an un-holstered firearm enters the scene, to threatening with a rock. The players are a float group and a landowner who is stated to be tired of the floaters. This is not a new activity the landowner is unfamiliar with. The floaters were within what is so far understood to be lawful access, though one guy went into the near woods to pee (a technical trespass which itself does not rise to deadly force repelling of an invasion force; the pee'er was not trying to make off with the landowner's prize hen). No, it's not about guns. It's about sensibility within the context of the circumstances. Only one party was unreasonable within the OP, the shooter.

Yachtie -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/23/2013 3:39:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I still think he will use the STG law in Missouri and I still think this very law enabled the shooter in the same way the SYG law enabled Zimmerman...Guns and laws giving the OK to use them without proper safeguards are a prescription for more murders. Butch You are wrong. SYG enables nothing. It merely removes the requirement to retreat from a perceived threat. The act of using deadly force is not enabled by SYG, but by the need for defending itself.

kdsub -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/23/2013 3:40:02 PM)
Well if he backed up and could shoot the guy in the face then no one was grabbing at him.. He is the one that told that version to the police....Remember he said he just shot the one closest... not the one attacking him...What do you think Butch

kdsub -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/23/2013 3:41:36 PM)
I didn't say he would win his case... I am saying these laws make people think they have the right to settle disputes with a gun. As for his defense he has none except SYG Butch

chatterbox24 -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/23/2013 3:43:41 PM)
Don't you dare pee on my land you idiot! Im gonna shoot you for that, if you keep peeing on my land. Maybe I should have carried a gun and shot people when they came on our land and stole our precious morel mushrooms, passing no trespassing signs. People are crazy, crazy, crazy. I believe in the right to defend yourself, but then they have these nut cases getting guns who think they have incredible power. They need to really stiffen the laws, these people are out of their minds, carrying guns around like purses, or power extensions. LOL. We used to fish at the river for years, and some crazy drunks moved across in a small fishing cabin directly across from our fishing hole. THey would get drunk and found it funny to shoot across the river into the bank on the other side. They did it once and claimed they didn't know anyone was there, the next time it happened, trust me they knew the law was there to pick them up. Some people shouldn't be allowed to carry a dull butter knife, let alone a gun.

Yachtie -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/23/2013 3:47:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I didn't say he would win his case... I am saying these laws make people think they have the right to settle disputes with a gun. As for his defense he has none except SYG Butch He can try. Bet he takes a plea bargain[:D] People think that the posted speed limit also means 10 or 20 over. Does a posted speed limit mean that?

BamaD -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/23/2013 3:49:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD One guy threatened him with a rock another tried to grab his gun One guy was holding a rock, the other tried to push the gun hand away - so says the article. You give it a whole different slant. I told you what the shooter saw.

Powergamz1 -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/23/2013 3:51:36 PM)
You believe in the right to defend yourself... buuuut for other people, only after they let someone hit them in the head with a rock? How many times? What about other weapons? How many cuts with a knife should someone get? I'll repeat this one more time. There is $1 million waiting at the JREF for you if you can prove in controlled conditions that you know what was going through anyone's mind at a given moment, as you've pretended to know here. Why haven't you claimed it? quote: ORIGINAL: chatterbox24 Don't you dare pee on my land you idiot! Im gonna shoot you for that, if you keep peeing on my land. Maybe I should have carried a gun and shot people when they came on our land and stole our precious morel mushrooms, passing no trespassing signs. People are crazy, crazy, crazy. I believe in the right to defend yourself, but then they have these nut cases getting guns who think they have incredible power. They need to really stiffen the laws, these people are out of their minds, carrying guns around like purses, or power extensions. LOL. We used to fish at the river for years, and some crazy drunks moved across in a small fishing cabin directly across from our fishing hole. THey would get drunk and found it funny to shoot across the river into the bank on the other side. They did it once and claimed they didn't know anyone was there, the next time it happened, trust me they knew the law was there to pick them up. Some people shouldn't be allowed to carry a dull butter knife, let alone a gun.

Powergamz1 -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/23/2013 3:55:38 PM)
So what is your threshold for using force in self defense? After being hit with a rock? After being stabbed with a knife? After more than one person puts their hands on you? Should people be required to carry 2 guns, and only use one after the first has been taken away? quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Well if he backed up and could shoot the guy in the face then no one was grabbing at him.. He is the one that told that version to the police....Remember he said he just shot the one closest... not the one attacking him...What do you think Butch

Yachtie -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/23/2013 4:08:34 PM)
The problem I see here is that the shooter was angry at floaters doing what was legally allowed. Only in this manner do I find any similarity with Zimmerman. In Zimmerman, both he and Trayvon were doing what was legally allowed until that moment one of them crossed the line. That was determined by a jury. I'm not here to repeat that discussion. The shooter here interjected himself into a lawful act by the floaters, took the confrontation to them with an un-holstered firearm even to discharging his firearm into the air and ground. If there was any threat, it was initiated by the shooter. That a man subsequently picked up a rock in each hand I cannot see as anything but defensive in nature.

chatterbox24 -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/23/2013 4:22:19 PM)
I think when he approached with a gun he changed the whole dynamic. Were they vandalizing this land? Or just peeing? When you pull a gun on someone some will surrender, some will get more aggressive. I don't know the whole story, but once you pull a gun you better be ready to use it, because some people are not going to react like you want, they aren't going to go quietly. Such as the lady who pulled the gun out of her trunk, looked like the guy just got more aggressive and went for the slash then. I wasn't there either, but it looked like she might have had time to get in the car, instead a gun was pulled. If someone broke into your house in the middle of the night, entering your bedroom and you feared for you life then that calls for some action. If you tell someone no, and they grab you and you are trying to get away then that might require some action, if they are threatening and assaulting. But if you can drive away, or pick a more civilized way to approach someone or avoid, that's the best way. That's my opinion and I think people are using them for situations they are bringing on themselves. Such as these stories being shared.

Powergamz1 -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/23/2013 4:33:09 PM)
To knock the bullets out of the air with? quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie The problem I see here is that the shooter was angry at floaters doing what was legally allowed. Only in this manner do I find any similarity with Zimmerman. In Zimmerman, both he and Trayvon were doing what was legally allowed until that moment one of them crossed the line. That was determined by a jury. I'm not here to repeat that discussion. The shooter here interjected himself into a lawful act by the floaters, took the confrontation to them with an un-holstered firearm even to discharging his firearm into the air and ground. If there was any threat, it was initiated by the shooter. That a man subsequently picked up a rock in each hand I cannot see as anything but defensive in nature.

Yachtie -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/23/2013 4:43:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 To knock the bullets out of the air with? Damn if I know. Maybe he thought he could distract the shooter by juggling?

Powergamz1 -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/23/2013 4:47:13 PM)
Having been a teenager with some friends goofing off when an allegedly crazy homeowner came out on his porch with a gun and started yelling about shooting, I'd suggest diving in the water and using the rocks to stay submerged for awhile. I would not suggest staying in the line of fire arguing or otherwise engaging someone who has already fired warning shots as though they weren't armed. That's not from a legal standpoint, either. quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 To knock the bullets out of the air with? Damn if I know. Maybe he thought he could distract the shooter by juggling?

BamaD -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/23/2013 4:48:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 To knock the bullets out of the air with? Damn if I know. Maybe he thought he could distract the shooter by juggling? Or maybe throw them at him, how much harm could that do see David vs Goliath The rock, contrary to popular opinion did not kill Goliath, he was killed with his own sword after being incapacitated by the stone, so rocks are clearly not lethal weapons.l

BamaD -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/23/2013 5:02:49 PM)
The whole story sounds fishy

thompsonx -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/23/2013 5:09:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 Unless they can prove that they were geologists at work, picking up a rock, and putting their hands on the property owner are going to portrayed as acts of aggression by any competent defense lawyer. Any competant prosecutor will point out that the defendant attacked the floaters with a gun and the floaters have a right to self defense.

thompsonx -> RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! (7/23/2013 5:11:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 So what is your threshold for using force in self defense? After being hit with a rock? After being stabbed with a knife? After more than one person puts their hands on you? Should people be required to carry 2 guns, and only use one after the first has been taken away? My threshold for self defense is when some punk ass motherfucker pulls out a gun and starts shooting at me for taking a piss.

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