quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini


The "Facts" are all around us.

quote:

Marini, there are two kinds of data. Hard data, and anecdotal data.

Hard data occurs when someone specifically decides to measure something, defines how it will be measured, etc., and then does it and interprets it rigorously.

Anecdotal information is using what happened to oneself, friends, coworkers, etc. Obviously, hard data is more valuable because it has a good context. For example, if I were to give you anecdotal information about the employment situation, it would be heavily Colorado-based and reflect white collar professional positions, largely technical. Good hard data would be more reflective of the economy as a whole.

Your posts indicate you are blurring the difference between the two.

If I read an article that does not distinguish between the two, and one that further thinks that a current data point represents a trend, I automatically assume that the study was done improperly. It's anecdotal, soft info presented as though it were hard data.

This whole thing may not mean anything to you if you're a big picture type. To me, it's huge difference because my work involves data and I'd be fired if I was that sloppy with it.

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ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

And I never said that installing machines only eliminates jobs, what i said was that machines displace a lot of the workforce that was required pre-machine

And by your example, the difference between a "displaced worker" and an "eliminated job" is...?

quote:


...20 or 30 jobs is better than nothing but that is in reality a drop in the bucket and I just dont see a few companies trying to manufacture in the US as somehow saving the US from the downward spiral

...companies are moving from China to Mexico, you can have a plant set up there in 2 months and with their low labor costs there, a corp is way further ahead having all or part of it done there..

Not if people won't buy their product because it's crap. Remember the Yugo?

Cheap labor isn't the only factor in what makes manufacturing profitable. You need an educated workforce capable of understanding the other issues. Compared to China and Mexico, the American worker is better equipped and more experienced. So stick around. We might be down, but we're far from out.

quote:


Yeah,.. you mean the likes of Monsanto could make a better berry??? NO THANKS!!! I know the best freakin' most amazing blueberry cuz I am from where a lot of non-American blueberries come from.. Last week I bought a big box of them (imported from Pitt Meadows, BC).. I am a blueberry connoisseur and I recognize those big fat juicy tasty berries.. For whatever reason, American blueberry growers dont grow that variety.. their loss, I guess..

I have no idea if Monsanto has anything to do with blueberries. I just know that West Michigan farmers grow some of the best organic blueberries I've ever had. But I'd be happy to compare them with yours if you want to send me some.[:)]

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ORIGINAL: tj444
HA! Sorry, those fat juicy sweet berries were ate the first day.. lol

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If I want to set up a factory using machines and only a few operators, then those jobs never existed in the first place.. no matter where in the world the factory is set up..

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I think Hyundai's are garbage, I would never buy one of those crappy made tin cans.. yet they are made in the US so does that make them any less "garbage" cuz they are made here?.. Amazingly people buy those tin cans.. ughhhh!..

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is an iPad garbage? its cheaper cuz its made in China but it would be considerably more if made in the US.. yet there would be no difference in the quality of the iPad..

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I totally disagree that US workers are better equipped and more experienced.. thats why STEM immigrants are so important to the US, cuz you have so few American workers in those fields..

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ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

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I think Hyundai's are garbage, I would never buy one of those crappy made tin cans.. yet they are made in the US so does that make them any less "garbage" cuz they are made here?.. Amazingly people buy those tin cans.. ughhhh!..

Actually, Hyundai has a very high quality rating.

http://www.edmunds.com/hyundai/
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/hyundai-scores-high-in-quality-study-car-news

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is an iPad garbage? its cheaper cuz its made in China but it would be considerably more if made in the US.. yet there would be no difference in the quality of the iPad..

Don't be so sure about that. Apple spent billions to make sure their Chinese manufacturers kept the quality where they wanted it. Not just any company can afford that. After that level of investment, you have to stick with it just to get your money back.

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I totally disagree that US workers are better equipped and more experienced.. thats why STEM immigrants are so important to the US, cuz you have so few American workers in those fields..

No, STEM immigrants are important because they're usually willing to work for less pay than an equally qualified American worker. When the economy started to tank what did Americans do? We went back to school in droves. There are plenty of qualified American workers. Companies just don't want to hire us because we demand a wage equal to our education level. STEM workers are just happy to be here. They'll live in a cardboard box if that's what it takes to stay. American workers won't.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Sad fact is.... the "official " unemployment number isnt the true number.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
We will see just how many manufacturing plants will be set up in the US in the next 20 or so years & if that has any real impact on the economy.. imo, construction coming back will do a hell of a lot more for the economy than a few piddly factories that might pop up..

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I can see why employers would hire immigrants over Americans and imo paying less is not one of the reasons I would hire them over Americans.. there are other factors that are more important to me and I doubt I am alone in that viewpoint.. The fact that you state "Companies just don't want to hire us because we demand a wage equal to our education level".. You demand, do you??? I for one would not want someone with that kind of entitlement attitude working for me.. I would hire an immigrant over someone with that attitude in a second cuz I want someone loyal to me, not someone who has no loyalty

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ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Doesn't the USA have a national reliable statistical institute?
Great question, None that I know of!
We used to have many great watchdogs, almost a thing of the past.

I know we have the same problems in Europe and some statistics from our national institute have some discrepansies with reality, some times. But overall the figures from our institute has proven to be very reliable over the past 50 years.
And to govern properly one needs a lot of statistics these days.
The public also has a right to reliable information and needs it a lot of the time to protect their own interests.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

And I never said that installing machines only eliminates jobs, what i said was that machines displace a lot of the workforce that was required pre-machine

And by your example, the difference between a "displaced worker" and an "eliminated job" is...?

quote:


...20 or 30 jobs is better than nothing but that is in reality a drop in the bucket and I just dont see a few companies trying to manufacture in the US as somehow saving the US from the downward spiral

...companies are moving from China to Mexico, you can have a plant set up there in 2 months and with their low labor costs there, a corp is way further ahead having all or part of it done there..

Not if people won't buy their product because it's crap. Remember the Yugo?

Cheap labor isn't the only factor in what makes manufacturing profitable. You need an educated workforce capable of understanding the other issues. Compared to China and Mexico, the American worker is better equipped and more experienced. So stick around. We might be down, but we're far from out.

quote:


Yeah,.. you mean the likes of Monsanto could make a better berry??? NO THANKS!!! I know the best freakin' most amazing blueberry cuz I am from where a lot of non-American blueberries come from.. Last week I bought a big box of them (imported from Pitt Meadows, BC).. I am a blueberry connoisseur and I recognize those big fat juicy tasty berries.. For whatever reason, American blueberry growers dont grow that variety.. their loss, I guess..

I have no idea if Monsanto has anything to do with blueberries. I just know that West Michigan farmers grow some of the best organic blueberries I've ever had. But I'd be happy to compare them with yours if you want to send me some.[:)]

HA! Sorry, those fat juicy sweet berries were ate the first day.. lol

If I want to set up a factory using machines and only a few operators, then those jobs never existed in the first place.. no matter where in the world the factory is set up..

No, I dont remember the Yugo but cheap doesnt mean garbage.. I think Hyundai's are garbage, I would never buy one of those crappy made tin cans.. yet they are made in the US so does that make them any less "garbage" cuz they are made here?.. Amazingly people buy those tin cans.. ughhhh!.. is an iPad garbage? its cheaper cuz its made in China but it would be considerably more if made in the US.. yet there would be no difference in the quality of the iPad..

I totally disagree that US workers are better equipped and more experienced.. thats why STEM immigrants are so important to the US, cuz you have so few American workers in those fields.. Unfortunately you wanna kick the STEM immigrant students out of the country once they have completed their education so you are shooting yourself in the foot over and over.. And American students that want to go to college face a huge barrier due to the high costs of tuition & related costs (double to triple costs in other countries like Canada & the UK, etc).. Your colleges are extremely greedy and so again, you are shooting yourselves in the foot.. And immigrants that want to set up a business in the US are basically turned away unless they have $1 million bucks sitting in the bank not doing anything.. Again, imo, you are shooting yourselves in the foot with those narrow requirements.. I dont see any of that changing, no matter which party is in control of the govt..

quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

The Yugo was a rebadged fiat 128 and it was a piece of crap, the same way that Chinese and Indian cars would never be sold in the US, besides the fact they don't meet pollution and safety regulations by a wide margin (basic things like safety glass, collapsible steering collumns,crumple zones). Hyundai's btw are not junk, they are not the same cars they sold here 30 years ago, they have moved upscale and their cars are as good as anyone's where you get the idea they are cheap tin, I don't know.

As far as educations go, be careful what you are talking about. There is a reason students come here from China and India, it is because the universities in their own country are crap in comparison, because of both culture and corruption, their universities basically produce very little in terms of new technology or idea, and their students know it, India prides itself on IIT being the "MIT of India", but if you look at what they produce in terms of research, it is a joke, same with Chinese universities.

More importantly, leaving out high tech and science (which after all is a very small part of things), the US workforce is fairly well educated compared to most of the world. The people working on China and India's assembly lines are not well educated, they are basically cheap, semi skiled labor, with a highlght on cheap. Years ago someone asked Akio Morita , the head of Sony, about building TV's in the US, and he said they would have great quality because Sony made them that way, and that US workers in many ways were superior to ones in his own country. The idea that India and China are these countries full of brainy students getting PHd's in science is made a lie by the reality, in both countries the overwhelming majority of the country are impoverished, poor and ill educated workers desperate for jobs, and manufacturing is predicated around a huge pool of cheap labor. China is starting to see the problem with that, they want to move upscale, but you can't if your workforce is mostly being used for being cheap. China's growth is slowing, and they face a loss of markets due to global economic issues, but cannot rely on their own economy because most people don't make enough to buy anything.

As far as the Ipad goes, the reason it is quality made is simple, they spend a lot of time and money inspecting what is made, and the cost of labor is so little and the margins so high they can afford losses to the reject pile. On an Iphone, the cost of manufacturing is about 40 bucks, on an Ipad same thing, the total cost, with chips and all, is about 150 bucks for items that sell for over 600....

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ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

Nor apparently any experience or confidence in their skills.

quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
The Yugo was a rebadged fiat 128 and it was a piece of crap, the same way that Chinese and Indian cars would never be sold in the US, besides the fact they don't meet pollution and safety regulations by a wide margin (basic things like safety glass, collapsible steering collumns,crumple zones). Hyundai's btw are not junk, they are not the same cars they sold here 30 years ago, they have moved upscale and their cars are as good as anyone's where you get the idea they are cheap tin, I don't know.

As far as educations go, be careful what you are talking about. There is a reason students come here from China and India, it is because the universities in their own country are crap in comparison, because of both culture and corruption, their universities basically produce very little in terms of new technology or idea, and their students know it, India prides itself on IIT being the "MIT of India", but if you look at what they produce in terms of research, it is a joke, same with Chinese universities.

More importantly, leaving out high tech and science (which after all is a very small part of things), the US workforce is fairly well educated compared to most of the world. The people working on China and India's assembly lines are not well educated, they are basically cheap, semi skiled labor, with a highlght on cheap. Years ago someone asked Akio Morita , the head of Sony, about building TV's in the US, and he said they would have great quality because Sony made them that way, and that US workers in many ways were superior to ones in his own country. The idea that India and China are these countries full of brainy students getting PHd's in science is made a lie by the reality, in both countries the overwhelming majority of the country are impoverished, poor and ill educated workers desperate for jobs, and manufacturing is predicated around a huge pool of cheap labor. China is starting to see the problem with that, they want to move upscale, but you can't if your workforce is mostly being used for being cheap. China's growth is slowing, and they face a loss of markets due to global economic issues, but cannot rely on their own economy because most people don't make enough to buy anything.

As far as the Ipad goes, the reason it is quality made is simple, they spend a lot of time and money inspecting what is made, and the cost of labor is so little and the margins so high they can afford losses to the reject pile. On an Iphone, the cost of manufacturing is about 40 bucks, on an Ipad same thing, the total cost, with chips and all, is about 150 bucks for items that sell for over 600....

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ORIGINAL: tj444
Someone semi-skilled but hard-working and loyal (meaning that they will stay with your company for years instead of job hopping) is still worth more to an employer..

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If immigrant workers were so poorly skilled, then why do they tend to make up such a large percentage of new entreprenuers?

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ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

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ORIGINAL: tj444
Someone semi-skilled but hard-working and loyal (meaning that they will stay with your company for years instead of job hopping) is still worth more to an employer..

Employers rule #1: Employee loyalty is relative to the workload, pay rate, and benefits package.

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If immigrant workers were so poorly skilled, then why do they tend to make up such a large percentage of new entreprenuers?

Take it from someone who's been involved with small business for 30 years...just because someone has the courage to start a business doesn't mean they actually know wtf they're doing. Take a look at the number of small businesses that fail within the first 5 years.

http://smallbiztrends.com/2012/12/start-up-failure-rates-the-definitive-numbers.html

The number one reason for failure? Lack of experience.

http://www.sba.gov/content/what-are-major-reasons-small-business-failure

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ORIGINAL: tj444

That may be true for American born workers but immigrant workers imo do have much more loyalty to the company that hired them and gave them the chance to prove themselves.. and imo they tend to outwork American workers..

And as far as starting a business goes, sure there is a high failure rate but 100 year old businesses can fail also.. so what? its much more secure than working for someone else where you dont have any control and could be out of a job a week from now.. There is no absolute security in either situation.. And imo, many successful enterprenuers have had a failed business or even several before they had a winner.. Failure is a chance to learn and get better, it is not the end (unless a person gives up, in which case.. nuff said).. Not everyone is cut out for that but from the stats, immigrants have more confidence in themselves & their abilities...

As far as your claim that lack of experience is the number one reason, thats not what the link actually stated.. that is one of the possible reasons, it does not rank the list as you claim.. Some immigrants have experience and some dont, but imo determination, willingness to sacrifice & invest back into their business as well as hard work more than make up for that.. And most immigrants that do start businesses here dont just land and start a business the same day (not unless they have a legit $1 million in the bank), they have usually worked for a company for several years first and would have that experience also..

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ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

Then, by all means, start your own high-tech business, hire only immigrant workers, pay them more than American workers while you train them on the job, then come back in 5 years and tell me what you think (provided you're still in business). Your opinion equals jack-squat compared to experience.

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ORIGINAL: tj444

Its not just my opinion.. its what successful American companies (microsoft, google, yahoo, etc etc etc) are actually doing and have been for many years now (that is experience for ya).. seems to work well for them.. [;)]

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ORIGINAL: tj444
"From 2006 to 2010, there were 676,537 new immigrant business owners in California, and in 2010, 33.4 percent of all business owners in California were foreign-born. Furthermore, from 2007 to 2011, immigrants in California founded around 45 percent of all new businesses in the state, while 36.6 percent of business owners in California in 2011 were immigrants. "
http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/just-facts/california-immigrant-entrepreneurs-innovation-and-welcoming-initiatives-golden-state

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ORIGINAL: Marini

tj, I remember a thriving America in the 70s, 80s even the 90s were pretty good.

It is hard to literally watch your country decline within your lifetime.

America is going off the edge, many, many, many, people of all races are suffering.

Many parts of America, will be looking like a 3rd world country pretty soon.

It's beyond horrific to watch this unfurl.