RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tourists at Olympic Games 'Gay propaganda' law co-sp

RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tourists at Olympic Games 'Gay propaganda' law co-sp (Full Version)

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njlauren -> RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tourists at Olympic Games 'Gay propaganda' law co-sp (8/10/2013 11:38:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 quote: ORIGINAL: njlauren Pesante, to use the Italian word, and thugs. "pesante" means heavy, if you meant peasants it's "bifolchi" You are correct, my Italian is rusty, it also could be villano, that was my mistake. It came from having a bit of a music background, where the description of the term was equated to the nature of peasants, both their burdens (slowly trudging, bearing their burdens) and also in what the educated thought of the peasant in terms of minds..but you are correct, should have used bifolchi or villano.

njlauren -> RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tourists at Olympic Games 'Gay propaganda' law co-sp (8/10/2013 11:42:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle There is a certain appeal about the resonance between gangster govt and politician govt. Sometimes it is difficult to tell one from the other. Russian is indeed run by gangsters but how is that different from some Western Govts (eg the organised crime entity aka the Israeli Govt)? Or any number of non-Western dictatorships who are 'best friends' with the West? But I don't see many citizens of the West applying for political refugee status in Russia. Nor do I see many Westerners emigrating there - Snowden is a notable exception who's there for overtly political reasons - the exception proving the rule. It's not something I would ever see myself contemplating. I'd imagine most reading these words would feel the same. The antics of those in power in Russia are tolerated in part because the Russian people have no experience of democratic government. They exchanged an authoritarian ruthless Tsar for equally authoritarian and ruthless Lenin and Stalin. The Communist Party fell from power not through a popular democratic revolution but mainly through internal disintegration and economic stagnation. The old elite re-branded themselves and retained the reins of power through another authoritarian and ruthless ex-KGB cabal. The more things change, the more they stay the same ....... One method Russian rulers used to maintain their grip on power was pogroms - 'pogrom' was originally a Russian word.* It involves demonising a minority usually Jewish, and the organising violent attacks on that minority. We in the West used to do this too, to Jews or blacks depending on the location. Nowadays we use more devious methods to deny minorities access to power - social and economic marginalisation is a current favourite. A bit more 'civilised', fewer corpses but the end result is still the same - those in power stay in power. And there are still plenty of corpses resulting from hate crimes against sexual minorities littering the West and polluting its conscience. It's no longer possible to organise pogroms against Jews or other ethnic minorities so the Russians choose to demonise queers instead. It's not acceptable in today's world - whether it occurs in Russia or Uganda or anywhere else. No one anywhere ought to live in terror and dread because of their queer sexuality. No responsible person should be glossing over or excusing Russian pogroms against queers - that just authorises more of the same for Russian's beleaguered sexual minorities. Is that what you really want? * early 20th century: from Russian, literally 'devastation', from gromit 'destroy by the use of violence' http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/pogrom?q=pogrom They can't pull pogroms on the jews because the jews have for the most part left, it was never that great for Jews in the USSR, but the communists kept a lid on it to a certain extent because Jews were often their bright stars in science and such (which in turn, as in the Tsars day, was Jews recognizing to have any kind of life, they needed to excel). Since the fall of the USSR and especially with the rise of the Russian Orthodox Church and its alliance with Putin's government, anti semitism has risen and Jews routinely are targeted, the few that are there. Things like the protocols of the elders of Zion are flourishing in Russia, and the Orthodox church is promoting things like the old blood libel.......kind of hard to have a pogrom, though, when there arent' enough to really oppress.

njlauren -> RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tourists at Olympic Games 'Gay propaganda' law co-sp (8/10/2013 11:48:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: njlauren for much of its existence Russia's intelligentsia were its Jews, Whatever gave you this idea. It is far from true, even amongst the Bolsheviks, let alone before then. Even in tsarists days, Jews who demonstrated extraordinary skills were given special favors, with musicians and scientists and the like, and this tradition continued on in the USSR. The scientists who helped develop the USSR's nuclear program, like the US teams in the Manhattan project, had a large percentage who were Jewish and the same was true in much of the sciences. Jews knew that for any hope of a better life the only way to get anywhere was to be better, and they strived for that (not all that unlike Jews in the US, who faced discrimination and ended up carving out a path unmatched by almost any group; to this day, the group with the largest percentage of advanced degrees in the US is people of Jewish ancestry, it is over 40% I believe)......

njlauren -> RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tourists at Olympic Games 'Gay propaganda' law co-sp (8/10/2013 11:51:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chatterbox24 The world is full of hate, yes, in every way, shape and form? People who are different should be eradicated and not accepted? Arrested? Killed? Painted with the same brush? Heteros, Homos, blacks, muslims, Christians, whites, government, the list is endless. Any leader who breaths this kind of stupidity is very dangerous. I would like to discuss homosexuality for a moment. This not meant to offend anyone. I would just like to openly put my view out there and tell a story. Recently I had an electronic transfer from my bank vanish into line air, I needed help from the bank to find the funds. I had contact with two men. The first man I would brand as strictly heterosexual, now I know that sounds prejudice, and I don't mean for it too but he had the deep voice, the masculine stature and very no nonsense attitude. I told him what happened, he clicked a few times on the computer, and basically told me good luck finding it and there wasn't much he could do for me. As he was telling me this I glanced over at another desk and there was another man looking at me, and speaking to lady co worker, and he had a smile on his face, I thought to myself, is he talking to me? I felt anger at this one man, who basically had a " I don't want to mess with you attitude" WHen he told me good luck, I said I don't need luck, took my folder to Derek, the smiling man, who was without a doubt gay. His voice was higher then mine, he sat feminine, and was prettier then me too. I sat down and he said what can I do for you? Do you know that man fixed my problem in a matter of minutes and smiled as he did it and recovered this large check? At that moment he was my miracle worker. Now on my personal note, do I believe God intended for us to sexually love the same sex? No I don't. Am I going to hate you for it? Absolutely not. Treat you different? Nope, unless your Derek, cause Derek was an angel to me, he would get better treatment then the "Good ole boy" I encountered at the bank. I still smoke. Huge habit I cant seem to break. Do you hate me for it? I was an adulteress and disgraced my family. Do you hate me for it? I used to be pretty volatile, yelling, cussing, feeding into a lot of hate that I was taught. Do you hate me for it? I would never knowingly, be part of an organization, who judged people with good hearts, because its wrong, blatantly wrong. I would also fight for their rights, just as I know many others would, even if it doesn't effect us directly. In the big scheme of things it effects everyone. Hate breeds hate. Love breeds love. IT is very sickening to see the prejudice of the world, when good people are abused. Now I know many of you all don't give give two hoots, to what I think and live by, but I felt very compelled to say it, and so therefore I did. I know you meant well, and I am glad you saw that a gay man was a nice person, and that good and bad comes in all groups, but your characterization of gay men as all being effeminate or 'non masculine' is a ridiculous stereotype. There are a lot of men who are soft spoken, kind of willowy looking, who are straight, and there are gay men literally who could ripe the doors off a car with their bare hands...

njlauren -> RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tourists at Olympic Games 'Gay propaganda' law co-sp (8/10/2013 12:01:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WebWanderer quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 hat it needs is for the IOC to revoke the original choice and re-assign the olympics to the one that came 2nd. And if they don't/won't do that, then all the countries should boycot the games completely. The Winter Olympics will start in just 6 months. As much as I support the sentiment, it's logistically impossible to do a decade's worth of work in half a year.. You are correct, even if it was years before, I doubt the IOC would do anything, the IOC is not what it claims to be, a force for good, it is another business basically, probably more like the Russian government than not (i.e where nothing happens there without people in the government getting nicely paid), the IOC is a bureaucracy where the members make a lot of money taking bribes from host nations to grant them the games. If anything is to happen, it would be going after the tv ratings, it would be going after NBC who spent 750 million bucks to televise these games. They don't get ratings, and they will be taking a big hit, and more importantly, it means when the next games are granted next time the networks may offer a lot less money,, and that money is incredibly important. It is putting the power of money to work, and it also doesn't punish the athletes, since they will be there competing anyway. I doubt anything will happen, but that is the best way to do it. I also will bet by the time these are on, that NBC will be running the usual puff pieces, extolling the delights of Solci, showing someone doing something cute like cutting wood for their stove, or having the local spirits in a bar with the locals, all smiles, or showing the comraderie of the Olympic village and so forth. I wonder if NBC will tell Mary Carillo to stay home, in order not to offend the Russians or having the embarrassment of having to send her home because the government is happy....and then have to tell Bob Costas to shut up about it. As far as this being an internal matter, since this is an international olympics, it is not, and human rights are not an internal matter, otherwise, all those years of cold war bullshit complaining about the oppression in the USSR, about the need for freedom around the world, was just more bullshit..I would like to believe it is not..and no, I don't believe letting the games happen will 'temper' Russia any more than the 36 Olympics tempered the Nazis.

njlauren -> RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tourists at Olympic Games 'Gay propaganda' law co-sp (8/10/2013 12:04:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 But there are other cities that have hosted before and other places that have many winter sports. I don't see where the issue is. I'm sure somewhere could be found that doesn't need a complete rebuild from the ground up to host them. It isn't that simple, a lot of the times the facilities either may have been shut down after the games or redeveloped for other uses. More importantly, what people don't realize is the logistics behind things like broadcast facilities and such that go into the games, from the time the games are granted they build a group of people who set up the broadcast facilities, the host network doesn't do that any more, it is all the organizing committee, plus there are all the newer things, the internet and network connections, the scoring systems, all of which once the games are done are generally taken off line...I would bet in Vancouver, the last games, that it would take a couple of years to get it back in place to allow televising it.

njlauren -> RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tourists at Olympic Games 'Gay propaganda' law co-sp (8/10/2013 12:08:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WebWanderer quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 But there are other cities that have hosted before and other places that have many winter sports. I don't see where the issue is. I'm sure somewhere could be found that doesn't need a complete rebuild from the ground up to host them. Do you realize how much planning goes into those events? There are hundreds of thousands of tourists (maybe even millions), who will require a place to stay, to shop, cars to rent, etc. Also, the stadiums and other facilities built specifically for Olympics usually tend to deteriorate or, in some extreme cases, get abandoned after the main event is over. Maintenance, upkeep costs, etc. In short, it would be like walking up to the guy who won the gold metal for a 100-meter sprint 20 years ago and asking him if he wouldn't mind competing and winning again. It only works in the movies... As for countries boycotting the Olympics, that's one hell of a slippery slope. [&:] Every country that's big and rich enough to host the Olympics has a ton of skeletons in its closet and can be boycotted for those reasons. The 2016 Olympics in Rio de Janeiro? Brazil has terrible social inequality and people living like cattle in some of the poorest neighborhoods. The 2018 Olympics in South Korea? Those monsters eat dogs! There's actually already a petition to boycott them. The 2020 Olympics will be held in either Turkey, Japan or Spain. Turkey is highly religious and has issues with minorities; Japan is xenophobic as hell; Spain is pretty much Catholicism central, with all the nasty implications. Or we can just boycott them all and give everyone a medal! Huzzah! [;)] Spain has the skeletons of Franco...though as Catholic central, not so much....Spain has legal same sex marriage and quite honestly, other than among the old people, the church is as dead and dying as the rest of Europe.....I believe less than 20% of its population bothers to even go to church, and in terms of gay life, while not perfect, there is a thriving gay scene in most of the countries cities, and i believe a lot of places have protections against discrimination, though not as sure about that one.

njlauren -> RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tourists at Olympic Games 'Gay propaganda' law co-sp (8/10/2013 12:13:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or USING FAST RESPONSE. I've a friend who is over fifty, and has a penchant for 15 year old girls. I HAVE SMACKED HIM AROUND and as a result we do no hang around now. Though I do see him and l talk to him because quite frankly I think the age limitation is bullshit, puberty is determined by nature not legislature. Nonetheless I disapprove because broads that age should be learning useful skills and I do not mean blowjobs, I mean to be useful to get a regular job or a good one, like go to school or some shit. I will also add that girls who're brought up right are not suscepitble to fucks like him who would just have them as sex slaves until they outlive their usefulness. But then there is my boss who turned one of his into a "pimp" of sorts to go get him youngins as well. Takes all kinds and we gotem. So, anyway, what if these peole put up signs thart said " Fifteen ? Meet your sugardaddy, I got money. I am invisible to the governemnt and I can take care of you in a style you never imagined. Live a life of luxury just for servicing me ? I can guarantee. Call 1-800-NOT-CARE. If you are not yet fifteen I can wait, and outfit and train you for the job until you come of age. NOW LET'S SEE YOUR REACTION TO THAT BILLBOARD UP ON THE HIGHWAY. That is how they see it. You know that law in Russia is not for Gays. It is for Gays who look PUBLICLY for "victims". For converts. You don't seem to remember how it was here do you ? You know changing laws and shit did not get Gays accepted in the US, or any other country, it was understanding. Understanding was not gianed by legislation. REMEMBER PEOPLE, WE ARE STILL IN THE CLOSET. Gays got their ass moving in this country but kinksters have not. We are still shunned somnewhat. In fact there is a guy on FL who I guess plays in shit. Alot of people really cannot stand that and I wouldn't either, but how the fuck will he ever find acceptance ? That is something we are not ready for, and might not ever be. But the question is to tolerate it. See you and I are now on the other side of the fence. How does it "feel" ? Now another question is whether to have it all out on big signs and shit. "PLEASE ANY WOMAN THAT WILL SHIT ON ME CAL 1-800-......... Any boys like 12 years old, girls treating you bad ? Take a walk on the wild side........ Hey honey, you look hot, can I tie you to a bed and make you BEG ME ? If you don't understand the reasons these things are shunned you are as ignorant as those who shum them. T^T Whatever argument you are trying to make, you just made the case that the Russians are a bunch of morons, given who their spokeperson is...other than the religious wonkers in this country, I have never heard such a pile of crap in my life....btw, protecting children has nothing to do with puberty, puberty is the age where kids are able to reproduce, which has nothing to do with the law.....two 15 year olds having sex in any kind of civilized area, leaving out the bible belt, is not illegal, because the kids are peers. A 50 year old scumbag is an adult, and kid are wired to obeying adult authority, they don't have the ability to easily say no or consent....the age varies, but the age is set to be when it is believed a child can consent to sex with an adult....so a 50 year old with a 15 year old is not legal for a reason. As far as 'gays' converting people, it just shows how stupid Russia is, if they elect lawmakers who believe that. yeah, we got them in this country, the bible belt and Texas are full of them, but we also have science and education that says differently......

njlauren -> RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tourists at Olympic Games 'Gay propaganda' law co-sp (8/10/2013 12:19:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy No one is going to go to jail per the Olympics. The last thing they would want is to ruin tourism by putting foriegners in jail for being gay. also the Olympics is not necessarily a boom for an area- there are cases where it actually cost the host city more then the games brought in. If a gay athlete does not feel safe then dont go. Sorry, PA, that is idiotic, that would have been like granting the Olympics to South Africa in apartheid and telling Yussain Bolt "don't like the country, don't feel safe, don't go"..the whole supposed point of the olympics (besides $$$$$) is supposed to be a place where people can compete and not worry about the bullshit, it is supposed to be where 'the world's children' or whatever drivel the IOC says, can participate freely without fear. In some ways, it kind of mirrored what Avery Brundage said after the Israeli Athletes were killed in Munich, and he basically said in response to those wondering if the games should go on "but of course, those who are experiencing the pain of this should remember the pain will go away, but the Olympics are forever" or some such crap......basically, the IOC doesn't give a crap, it hasn't changed all that much..I wouldn't be surprised if at some point they granted the Olympics to North Korea or to some garden spot in Africa where they mutilate women's sexual organs and are perfectly free to kill gay people.......that is the IOC, if it sells, go for it.

PeonForHer -> RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tourists at Olympic Games 'Gay propaganda' law co-sp (8/10/2013 3:25:59 PM)
FR I'm just wondering: were heterosexuals banned from taking part in the original Olympic games, back in Ancient Greece? It's a thought, innit?

pahunkboy -> RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tourists at Olympic Games 'Gay propaganda' law co-sp (8/10/2013 4:17:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer FR I'm just wondering: were heterosexuals banned from taking part in the original Olympic games, back in Ancient Greece? It's a thought, innit? 2 points.

tweakabelle -> RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tourists at Olympic Games 'Gay propaganda' law co-sp (8/11/2013 2:58:25 AM)
Queer activists in Russia have released a statement supporting moves to boycott the Sochi Olympics and Russian products. It reads: "Dear Friends, International support is essential for the survival of Russia's LGBT community right now. We appreciate and support all attempts to let the Russian authorities know that homophobic and inhumane laws will not go unnoticed and that Vladimir Putin's regime will not get away with antigay violence. We speak out in favor of boycotting Russian goods and companies and the Olympic Games in Sochi. We also appreciate the attention of international media; we need it. We would also support any legislative initiative aimed at holding the Russian authorities accountable for their homophobic campaign. Thank you for being with us in our hour of need." http://queernationny.org/lgbtrussiansupport

eulero83 -> RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tourists at Olympic Games 'Gay propaganda' law co-sp (8/11/2013 5:10:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: njlauren quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy No one is going to go to jail per the Olympics. The last thing they would want is to ruin tourism by putting foriegners in jail for being gay. also the Olympics is not necessarily a boom for an area- there are cases where it actually cost the host city more then the games brought in. If a gay athlete does not feel safe then dont go. Sorry, PA, that is idiotic, that would have been like granting the Olympics to South Africa in apartheid and telling Yussain Bolt "don't like the country, don't feel safe, don't go"..the whole supposed point of the olympics (besides $$$$$) is supposed to be a place where people can compete and not worry about the bullshit, it is supposed to be where 'the world's children' or whatever drivel the IOC says, can participate freely without fear. In some ways, it kind of mirrored what Avery Brundage said after the Israeli Athletes were killed in Munich, and he basically said in response to those wondering if the games should go on "but of course, those who are experiencing the pain of this should remember the pain will go away, but the Olympics are forever" or some such crap......basically, the IOC doesn't give a crap, it hasn't changed all that much..I wouldn't be surprised if at some point they granted the Olympics to North Korea or to some garden spot in Africa where they mutilate women's sexual organs and are perfectly free to kill gay people.......that is the IOC, if it sells, go for it. I don't see it this way, the IOC is not ment to be a political activist organization, it's just a sportive international federation, so it just can't mess with a nation's internal policies unless they don't go against a fair sportive competition, and it would not be right to do in another way, South Africa was forbidden to partecipate becuse black athletes were not allowed to be part of the national team, like nazist in 1936 would have lost the games if jewish athletes where excluded, an athlete will get a ban if refuse to fight or compete with another, it happened to an iranian wrestler that refused to fight an israeli one, but that's it. Than eve if I usually disagree with termyn8or, but I agree with his post (#54).

pahunkboy -> RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tourists at Olympic Games 'Gay propaganda' law co-sp (8/11/2013 5:15:38 AM)
It seems the Russia changed the contract-

pahunkboy -> RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tourists at Olympic Games 'Gay propaganda' law co-sp (8/11/2013 10:22:29 AM)
http://www.buzzfeed.com/hunterschwarz/someone-painted-the-crosswalk-outside-the-russian-embassy-in rainbow cross walk near embassy

JeffBC -> RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tourists at Olympic Games 'Gay propaganda' law co-sp (8/11/2013 10:37:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 I don't see it this way, the IOC is not ment to be a political activist organization, it's just a sportive international federation, so it just can't mess with a nation's internal policies unless they don't go against a fair sportive competition And I completely agree. They made a really unfortunate choice in location though and I'd like to send them a message to that effect. That's why I said "Don't watch the olympics if you are pro-LGBT". As NJLauren said, the IOC is about money, power, and corruption. So speaking to them in terms of "human rights" is sort of pointless. They don't care. Speak to them in terms of money and they will get the message Insofar as this time? It's too late to fix this one. All the whining in the world isn't going to change it. The most we can all do is visibly not support it (petition pledging to not watch and optionally, discontinuing buying products which advertise on the olympics). People will watch though. Lots and lots of LGBT people will watch. Most humans have a hard time with the whole immediate gratification thing.

graceadieu -> RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tourists at Olympic Games 'Gay propaganda' law co-sp (8/11/2013 11:06:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 I don't see it this way, the IOC is not ment to be a political activist organization, it's just a sportive international federation, so it just can't mess with a nation's internal policies unless they don't go against a fair sportive competition And I completely agree. They made a really unfortunate choice in location though and I'd like to send them a message to that effect. To be fair to them, though, they picked the location 7 years ago. I don't recall Russia being so openly anti-gay at that point, though I could be wrong.

WebWanderer -> RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tourists at Olympic Games 'Gay propaganda' law co-sp (8/12/2013 6:23:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: graceadieu To be fair to them, though, they picked the location 7 years ago. I don't recall Russia being so openly anti-gay at that point, though I could be wrong. You're wrong. I haven't been to Russia in over a decade, but I still remember the news footage of Russian SWAT squads breaking up the Gay Pride parades and cracking skulls as they did so. It wasn't a big secret or anything... The IOC either did less due diligence than John McCain did when he picked his VP candidate, or they just didn't care to begin with.

Politesub53 -> RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tourists at Olympic Games 'Gay propaganda' law co-sp (8/12/2013 4:19:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: njlauren Even in tsarists days, Jews who demonstrated extraordinary skills were given special favors, with musicians and scientists and the like, and this tradition continued on in the USSR. The scientists who helped develop the USSR's nuclear program, like the US teams in the Manhattan project, had a large percentage who were Jewish and the same was true in much of the sciences. Jews knew that for any hope of a better life the only way to get anywhere was to be better, and they strived for that (not all that unlike Jews in the US, who faced discrimination and ended up carving out a path unmatched by almost any group; to this day, the group with the largest percentage of advanced degrees in the US is people of Jewish ancestry, it is over 40% I believe)...... This was the rare few and not the norm though. It doesnt alter the fact most of the Intelligensia were not Jewish.

deathtothepixies -> RE: Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tourists at Olympic Games 'Gay propaganda' law co-sp (8/12/2013 4:29:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy Russian lawmaker: We will arrest gay athletes, tourists at Olympic Games 'Gay propaganda' law co-sponsor says he is unconcerned about a US visa ban, saying: 'I've spoken to US politicians, and they support my stance' 30 JULY 2013 \| BY JOE MORGAN Vitaly Milonov has said Russia will definitely be arresting gay athletes and tourists at the Winter Olympic Games in Sochi, Russia. A Russian lawmaker has said the ‘gay propaganda’ law will remain enforced during the Sochi Winter Olympic Games in 2014 - See more at: http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/russian-lawmaker-we-will-arrest-gay-athletes-tourists-olympic-games300713#sthash.xfCHW75V.3VPHHZY5.dpuf No, they won't It's a fun idea to post about but they won't. Look at the original poster and his source. Next thread please

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