RE: Why discourage others? (Full Version)

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ShaharThorne -> RE: Why discourage others? (8/2/2013 6:24:45 PM)

I live in a small town. Unless I hit the lottery, I am staying here. I also live with my mother (let the 'basement' jokes begin) but that is due to my treatment...I am mentally ill and in order for treatment by the state, I need to live somewhere. I could live with Bo and my daughter but when there are 3 dominant personalities in the same household, it can wear a person out.

So no munches for me. I don't drive because of panic attacks. I am content to be on the boards and shop online. I get erotica ebooks on Amazon since Mom does not touch the Kindle...LOL!

So if you cmail me, unless I know you from the boards, chances are you will be deleted unread. I used to cyber years ago but my sex drive is down...blame the meds I take.



bloomswell -> RE: Why discourage others? (8/2/2013 6:37:34 PM)

I started with bdsm in 1970. I met couples and singles through contact magazines and continued in this way for many years until the net kicked in. I've been to munches and haven't enjoyed them mainly as I get too tonguetied when confronted by people in bulk to be much good at working a room. I don't go to non kink parties either for much the same reason.
I find the net perfect for meeting people. I haven't stumbled on a fake yet (cross fingers) as I make a point of having a long phone call with any potential play partner.
However I could well see that someone new to the 'scene' might be clueless as to how to pick a fake so in that case a munch might prove better for screening purposes. It must be said though that one can meet a psycho at a munch as well as online.

I'd advise anyone new to dating (kink or vanilla) to have as many safety checks in place as possible.



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Why discourage others? (8/3/2013 11:31:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

I have also noticed a lot of people post that they are against munches . . . but munches (and leather events) truly are for everyone, that is part of what makes the lifestyle a "leather community".

You can't be a "biker" if you ain't in a club . . . otherwise you are just a motorcycle owner.

You can't be "in the leather lifestyle" if you don't participate or interact with the leather community . . . otherwise you are just a whip owner.

I say ignore all the maniacs that think "leather lifestyle" means hiring some "Findom" and jerkin' it on cam or obeying some married and cheating "online Dom" really has anything to do with the leather lifestyle. That shit is just kink with some leather sprinkled on top. . . it ain't the leather lifestyle, it's kink.


Are you suggesting it's somehow necessary to be a part of the 'leather lifestyle' in order to be a valid BDSMer/kinkster?

Sorry, but I'm from Belgium, and as far as I can tell, the 'leather community' is just about non-existent there. I had never even heard of it before moving to the US, aside from a few mentions here and there online, of what I assumed was an obscure fringe movement. Now that I'm living in the US, I still don't have even the slightest desire to be a part of it. I don't care about the ritual, the history, the symbolisms, because it's not *my* history, rituals, and symbolisms. In fact, it doesn't have any freaking thing to do with me at all.

I love going to clubs, and playpartiers, classes and kinky community events. I tend to find munches boring as fuck (another thing we don't have in Belgium) so I don't tend to go to those.

However, not all kink events are leather events. In fact, the overwhelming majority of events I've been to in my life have had NOTHING whatsoever to do with the leather community.

I'm not just a 'whip owner'. I'm a kinkster, and a BDSMer, and a damn experienced one for my age, and a damn good one at what I do. The think I am not is 'in the leather lifestyle'. Nor do I need to be, nor do I have any desire or intention whatsoever to be in it.

The insinuation that I am somehow a less capable, less well-rounded, online-wannabe, because I don't consider myself part of the leather community is frankly rather insulting... an unexpected, coming from you.



njlauren -> RE: Why discourage others? (8/3/2013 11:56:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

I have also noticed a lot of people post that they are against munches . . . but munches (and leather events) truly are for everyone, that is part of what makes the lifestyle a "leather community".

You can't be a "biker" if you ain't in a club . . . otherwise you are just a motorcycle owner.

You can't be "in the leather lifestyle" if you don't participate or interact with the leather community . . . otherwise you are just a whip owner.

I say ignore all the maniacs that think "leather lifestyle" means hiring some "Findom" and jerkin' it on cam or obeying some married and cheating "online Dom" really has anything to do with the leather lifestyle. That shit is just kink with some leather sprinkled on top. . . it ain't the leather lifestyle, it's kink.


Are you suggesting it's somehow necessary to be a part of the 'leather lifestyle' in order to be a valid BDSMer/kinkster?

Sorry, but I'm from Belgium, and as far as I can tell, the 'leather community' is just about non-existent there. I had never even heard of it before moving to the US, aside from a few mentions here and there online, of what I assumed was an obscure fringe movement. Now that I'm living in the US, I still don't have even the slightest desire to be a part of it. I don't care about the ritual, the history, the symbolisms, because it's not *my* history, rituals, and symbolisms. In fact, it doesn't have any freaking thing to do with me at all.

I love going to clubs, and playpartiers, classes and kinky community events. I tend to find munches boring as fuck (another thing we don't have in Belgium) so I don't tend to go to those.

However, not all kink events are leather events. In fact, the overwhelming majority of events I've been to in my life have had NOTHING whatsoever to do with the leather community.

I'm not just a 'whip owner'. I'm a kinkster, and a BDSMer, and a damn experienced one for my age, and a damn good one at what I do. The think I am not is 'in the leather lifestyle'. Nor do I need to be, nor do I have any desire or intention whatsoever to be in it.

The insinuation that I am somehow a less capable, less well-rounded, online-wannabe, because I don't consider myself part of the leather community is frankly rather insulting... an unexpected, coming from you.


Not sure, but I think one of the problems here is the term "leather community"..to someone like RS and others who are into that, it is a specific term regarding those who are into the protocols and hierarchy of that particular branch of BD/SM- whereas others use 'leather community' to mean anyone into kink, I have used it in that context (it reminds me of the term transgender, that causes major fights, where those who identify as the opposite sex/gender object to it being used as a broad spectrum for anyone who is gender variant.)

My take on RS's post, though he frame it in terms of 'leather community', is those who claim to be into kink/bdsm where it is done virtually versus people who actually get out and do things, and I kind of understand his point. To me BD/SM in all its forms is a real life activity, between two or more people involved, and that doing it virtually (to me) is kind of dubious, because interactions over the net are very different then IRL, as discussions on here are different than IRL. It isn't so much that net stuff isn't 'real' (ask people whose relationships have gone south because of 'cyber affairs' and the like, even though the people cheating haven't actually met or had sex), it is that being virtual it is missing a lot of depth IMO..I won't call it non real, any more then I would call someone going to a pro domme to get their kink out non real, but both are very, very different then real life things....I think, UllrsIshtar, that RS wasn't calling someone not into the 'leather community' as he is into it as non real, I suspect it was people using the term leather community to describe themselves who do everything virtually....


The other thing is that a lot of people into kink do it in their lives with their partner or partners, and don't get out there to parties and events and such, and they are quite real, and I doubt RS was talking about them either. I don't like the term real, but I do think personally that people who do this virtually are doing so mostly in a fantasy realm, in the sense that interacting over the net is missing large layers of what relationships are, for example, it is a lot easier in a cyber relationship to stop chatting/im'ing, webcamming with someone you have been interacting with, then it is to do so in real life/face to face things, and a cyber relationship is limited to what goes on in cyberspace, it has defined walls relationships in real time have.

I think there is a lot to be said for interacting with others, my active involvement in events and such ended when I made the decision to revert transition and basically couldn't face the judgement I took when I made my decision (or really, assumed I would take there), but I also met a lot of wonderful, cool people there, not just because of shared being in kink, but because they were interesting people, too. One reason I would encourage people to give it a shot isn't just because you could meet a partner or find great information, you also can meet people who are fun, wonderful people, too, into different things. One thing about the kink scene, it was a place where I tended to meet a lot of people who were different, who practiced different spiritual beliefs, who in many ways marched to a beat of a different drum, it is where i met people who were Shamans, people into study of religion, people who were into philosophy, people who had done unusual things and were willing to talk about it, and I also met people who were attempting to do what we were, being different in various ways, while in other ways being the parents with the house in the burbs and so forth, and that can be a big thing, too, knowing another couple where the D does 'nasty' things to the S, yet they also are parents doing the parent thing....someday I may brave the outside again, once some of the wounds heal finally, because there is a lot out there; it isn't about being legitimate, it is about the upside of sharing this with others.



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Why discourage others? (8/3/2013 12:04:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren


quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

I have also noticed a lot of people post that they are against munches . . . but munches (and leather events) truly are for everyone, that is part of what makes the lifestyle a "leather community".



Are you suggesting it's somehow necessary to be a part of the 'leather lifestyle' in order to be a valid BDSMer/kinkster?



Not sure, but I think one of the problems here is the term "leather community"..to someone like RS and others who are into that, it is a specific term regarding those who are into the protocols and hierarchy of that particular branch of BD/SM- whereas others use 'leather community' to mean anyone into kink, I have used it in that context (it reminds me of the term transgender, that causes major fights, where those who identify as the opposite sex/gender object to it being used as a broad spectrum for anyone who is gender variant.)



See, I always assumed that the 'leather community' is something you had to actively choose to be a part of, and that merely going to a Fetish party didn't mean you were a part of it, but RS's quote that "going to a munch or leather event is what makes you part of the 'leather community'" seems to contradict that idea.

I personally don't ascribe to the idea that just because I happen to love going to events I'm in any way whatsoever a part of the 'leather community' nor do I ascribe to the idea that I'm somehow less qualified, or 'missing out' because I'm not a part of that community.

It's quite frankly not at all my cup of tea.



JeffBC -> RE: Why discourage others? (8/3/2013 2:16:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Now I'd like you to ask yourself what the motivations might be for those who discourage you. Are there situations where you *not* giving the kink community a shot that might benefit the detractors? Is it possible that not everybody is discouraging folks from giving it a shot that are coming from some less than selfless motivations?


I'm gonna go with Occam's razor on this one. People, in general, have a very, very, very hard time understanding that other people's viewpoints differ from their own. So if most people head on off to a munch and it doesn't serve their needs then they will assume it doesn't serve anyone else's needs either. I just got off an internet gaming board where I was ripping my hair out at this same ridiculousness. This, by the way, is partially an anonymity artifact. People tend to be exercised much more empathy in the real world.

It's the same reason online only and various other things are mocked here.

Insofar as me personally? I attended some munches and a few MAsT events. They were not what I had expected. They did teach me that BDSM people are just people. I routinely give the rubber stamp "go to a munch" answer for just that reason. Because no matter what else the person gets from it, what they will meet is real people being... well... real. My own observation is that the gap between online and offline BDSM is much more stark than what RS talked about. I'm personally cool with the idea of "online only BDSM" but if someone wants to know what offline BDSM is like they aren't going to find it here.



ARIES83 -> RE: Why discourage others? (8/3/2013 6:10:55 PM)

quote:

People, in general, have a very, very, very hard time understanding that other people's viewpoints differ from their own. So if most people head on off to a munch and it doesn't serve their needs then they will assume it doesn't serve anyone else's needs either.


You seem to have a extremely low opinion of people in general... Even I give the general populace more credit than that, and I have a unique insight at the moment, into just how sheeplike and reluctant to step outside the box even highly trained educators can be owing to the type of gov work I'm doing currently... As well as me having a healthy(unhealthy?) sense of superiority bordering on the condescending.[&:]
But even so, I'd still give anyone credit to be able to realise, just because they like/dislike something, the next person may not necessarily feel the same way.



JeffBC -> RE: Why discourage others? (8/3/2013 7:32:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83
You seem to have a extremely low opinion of people in general... Even I give the general populace more credit than that,

You'd be wrong. I actually like humans... a LOT. I'm a genuine people person. I view the entire world through human relationships more than things or tasks. I just recognize the reality of what it means to be human. For forever we've been wanting to wish ourselves into a species we are not. I happen to [mostly] like the species that we actually are.



LadyPact -> RE: Why discourage others? (8/3/2013 9:01:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
See, I always assumed that the 'leather community' is something you had to actively choose to be a part of, and that merely going to a Fetish party didn't mean you were a part of it, but RS's quote that "going to a munch or leather event is what makes you part of the 'leather community'" seems to contradict that idea.

I personally don't ascribe to the idea that just because I happen to love going to events I'm in any way whatsoever a part of the 'leather community' nor do I ascribe to the idea that I'm somehow less qualified, or 'missing out' because I'm not a part of that community.

It's quite frankly not at all my cup of tea.

Going to try to do My best on this one.

The thing is, RS is right from a leather point of view and you're right from a non-leather point of view. Where the confusion lies is just like saying it's correct to say all apples are fruits, but that doesn't mean that all fruits are apples. In the same note, all leather folks would be considered BDSM, but not all BDSM folks are leather. It's not that we expect all BDSM folks to *want* to be leather. It honestly isn't for everybody and we get that. Of course, since we are leather folks, we see it as a different element.

To put it in a cross cultural language, in the best of My ability, a person who tries to tell other folks that they are a leather person without participating in the leather community is similar to professing to be Gorean without ever having read any of Norman's books. Community and furthering education through that community is one of the central components of a leather person's life. Without it, one could compare it to a Gorean who doesn't believe in their interpretation of philosophy. "Doing your own thing" isn't a leather person's way. Part of what makes us leather people is our belief in community and continuing education. Without it, we most certainly are kinksters, but not necessarily leather.





ARIES83 -> RE: Why discourage others? (8/3/2013 11:04:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83
You seem to have a extremely low opinion of people in general... Even I give the general populace more credit than that,

You'd be wrong. I actually like humans... a LOT. I'm a genuine people person. I view the entire world through human relationships more than things or tasks. I just recognize the reality of what it means to be human. For forever we've been wanting to wish ourselves into a species we are not. I happen to [mostly] like the species that we actually are.


You think this>
quote:

JeffBC:
People, in general, have a very, very, very hard time understanding that other people's viewpoints differ from their own. So if most people head on off to a munch and it doesn't serve their needs then they will assume it doesn't serve anyone else's needs either.

Is how people in general see things?...

Thats like how the stupidist of the stupid would see things. O_o
I still say your not giving people enough credit, the reality of what it means to be human may be diferent in canada?...[X(]



metamorfosis -> RE: Why discourage others? (8/4/2013 3:09:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83
You seem to have a extremely low opinion of people in general...I'd still give anyone credit to be able to realise, just because they like/dislike something, the next person may not necessarily feel the same way.


I wouldn't (give the average person that much credit). I'm not sure if I would give myself that much credit. It's human nature to give ourselves and how we see the world, a certain primacy.

I haven't seen many on either side of the munch issue go out of their way to express that, although they may feel a certain way about munches, it is perfectly acceptable to feel otherwise.



TNDommeK -> RE: Why discourage others? (8/4/2013 5:21:54 AM)

I will admit, I do have a reading comprehension problem. I do get distracted. So can someone please inform me how the hell this ventured off to be about fin dommes? I thought this was about discouraging ppl to go to munches etc.




MariaB -> RE: Why discourage others? (8/4/2013 9:14:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK

I will admit, I do have a reading comprehension problem. I do get distracted. So can someone please inform me how the hell this ventured off to be about fin dommes? I thought this was about discouraging ppl to go to munches etc.




I thought we were actually back on topic now. I think its a good idea not to get distracted back onto the fin Domme thing again.


As far as 'Leather families' and the meaning behind 'Leather', that's only really relevant in Europe if you are part of the gay male community. When Americans start talking about 'Leather' I just accept that its very much an American thing and has never played any relevance in my life, even though I have been deeply involved in BDSM on a public level.




UllrsIshtar -> RE: Why discourage others? (8/4/2013 9:53:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

You think this>
quote:

JeffBC:
People, in general, have a very, very, very hard time understanding that other people's viewpoints differ from their own. So if most people head on off to a munch and it doesn't serve their needs then they will assume it doesn't serve anyone else's needs either.

Is how people in general see things?...

Thats like how the stupidist of the stupid would see things. O_o
I still say your not giving people enough credit, the reality of what it means to be human may be diferent in canada?...[X(]



Cultural difference alert!

Aries, from my experience here, that is how a disproportionately large percentage of Americans would see things (compared to my experiences in Europe... not saying Europeans don't do it, just that the portion of the population seems to be much larger here), not just the stupidist of the stupid, but more like the majority of the population.

You're Australian, so I don't know in how far this applies to you, but to Americans, open-mindedness of the type I grew up with and am used to, is mostly a foreign concept. The type and thing they call 'open-mindedness' here is foreign to me, because of how heavily it tends to be influenced by very ridged paradigms.







Moonlightmaddnes -> RE: Why discourage others? (8/4/2013 9:56:29 AM)

I have been to quite a few munches, there are several really nice groups in my area. We always have fun, I am not sure if I am apart of a rare group where people are friendly and easy to get along with or others are just cranky.
Lately I have done a lot more of getting together outside of a munch since so many of us have kids and have a hard time all making it due to childcare.

I have not really done play parties. They go on way to late at night for me. I have seen them post the funny pictures of what happens if someone has the misfortune of falling asleep. I would not be safe at all, my husband would be all oh shit this is gonna be fun to take pictures of. Nope they're not gonna get me.[:D] I am going to a subbie sleep over next month. I sure hope they don't plan to be up all night, I am in big trouble if they do since I will never make it.



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Why discourage others? (8/4/2013 10:06:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
See, I always assumed that the 'leather community' is something you had to actively choose to be a part of, and that merely going to a Fetish party didn't mean you were a part of it, but RS's quote that "going to a munch or leather event is what makes you part of the 'leather community'" seems to contradict that idea.

I personally don't ascribe to the idea that just because I happen to love going to events I'm in any way whatsoever a part of the 'leather community' nor do I ascribe to the idea that I'm somehow less qualified, or 'missing out' because I'm not a part of that community.

It's quite frankly not at all my cup of tea.

Going to try to do My best on this one.

The thing is, RS is right from a leather point of view and you're right from a non-leather point of view. Where the confusion lies is just like saying it's correct to say all apples are fruits, but that doesn't mean that all fruits are apples. In the same note, all leather folks would be considered BDSM, but not all BDSM folks are leather. It's not that we expect all BDSM folks to *want* to be leather. It honestly isn't for everybody and we get that. Of course, since we are leather folks, we see it as a different element.

To put it in a cross cultural language, in the best of My ability, a person who tries to tell other folks that they are a leather person without participating in the leather community is similar to professing to be Gorean without ever having read any of Norman's books. Community and furthering education through that community is one of the central components of a leather person's life. Without it, one could compare it to a Gorean who doesn't believe in their interpretation of philosophy. "Doing your own thing" isn't a leather person's way. Part of what makes us leather people is our belief in community and continuing education. Without it, we most certainly are kinksters, but not necessarily leather.





That makes much more sense. RS's post seems to imply that he considered me part of the 'leather community' (or anybody who goes to events for that matter). And that going to events versus not going to events was a matter of 'being leather' versus 'not being leather', which seemed odd, considering what I know about the leather community, and how one gets integrated in that.

If it's just a matter of 'don't call yourself leather cause you play online and haven't ever even been to a leather event' then absolutely that makes total sense, but that still has very little to do with wether or not people actually go to events or not.
There are tons of people who go to events without being leather, and tons of people who don't go to events without claiming they're leather online.

As an aside I'd like to add just for clarification that I don't have anything against leather events. In fact, the few times I've attended such evens, I found them to be better organized, planned, structured and have more community sense than the typical events I tend to enjoy going to, sometimes too much so for my personal taste on the structure and community sense. I'm a bit of a fly by the seat of my pants lone wolf type, and I don't enjoy mixing in kumbaya moments with my kink. [:D]

My lack of community sense when it comes to kink is also why I see no benefit whatsoever in going to munches. For me a munch entails going to a poor quality restaurant with horrible food that's bad for me and hanging out with a bunch of people to whom I've got nothing to say, nothing in common with, and for the most part don't even like, without the distraction of having something to do, learn, explore, or talk about, like what happens at a play party. Munches remind me too much of (blood)family gatherings, something I've tried to avoid like the plague my entire life.



theshytype -> RE: Why discourage others? (8/4/2013 11:58:37 AM)

FR - because this is really more due to the "straw that broke the camel's back", leading me to my rant. 

I love it.  A personal "observation" has concluded that the majority of Americans are close-minded. 
Well, that's a rather close-minded opinion, isn't it?
Stereotypes and statistics, whether personally observed or not, are rather close-minded IMHO.  Another sweeping generalization regarding the US.   It's nice to know that natural-born Americans are not the only ones that fall victim to arrogance.  

As an American, having said this earlier in the thread:
"What's wrong for me may be right for another", I would hope that would be construed as me having the ability to be open to others' mindsets.  And while I may be just one of many, I can assure you I've had no difficulty coming in contact with others like myself.  The majority of people I surround myself with actually have a far more positive outlook than I when it comes to human nature because those are the people I choose to be around.  
End of rant. 

Now, more on topic:  
Around the forums, I have seen a few "I hate munches because..." but cannot recall a time I have seen "Don't go to a munch because..."
Not that it hasn't been said, but I don't recall seeing it.  Reading the "I" in the first, I'm left with the impression that that person is strongly against them because of their experience, but have not been left with the impression that those individuals are strongly against them for everyone else.  

I think it's an actual positive to see negative experiences.  Otherwise, anyone going to their first munch may be severely disappointed, having been painted a false picture of fun and perfection. 





JeffBC -> RE: Why discourage others? (8/4/2013 12:23:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
You're Australian, so I don't know in how far this applies to you, but to Americans, open-mindedness of the type I grew up with and am used to, is mostly a foreign concept. The type and thing they call 'open-mindedness' here is foreign to me, because of how heavily it tends to be influenced by very ridged paradigms.


Actually, I was referring more to a visceral sense of empathy with a foreign viewpoint. This is a conversation I want to find some time to have with Aswad since he's my goto brain expert. I suspect that there might be a perspective issue here too. Let's assume I'm correct in saying I am "high empathy". Well then the rest of the world would look "low empathy" to me, right? Of course, I would empathize with that rather than judge it.. which is kind of where I'm at :)



kdsub -> RE: Why discourage others? (8/4/2013 12:31:11 PM)

I have been asked often by friends to attend a local munch. I always say no thank you but I would never discourage someone else from going.

I have no idea why others do not want to go but locally I have a somewhat public persona. Nothing big time but still my participation in a munch could affect others negatively if discovered and publicized.

But on top of that I am a very shy person…lol… really I am. But at the same time an exhibitionist. I don’t mean a flasher but I don’t mind at all being naked around others.. The two above mixed together can make for some odd social interaction. So best for me not to go and keep all play with trusted individuals.

I do feel bad however in not going for others decide not to go because I’m not. But nothing I can do about that.

Butch



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Why discourage others? (8/4/2013 2:53:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: theshytype

I love it.  A personal "observation" has concluded that the majority of Americans are close-minded. 



That's not at all what I said, but thanks for twisting my words and taking them completely out of context.

I said that TYPE of open-mindedness is a foreign concept, and the type of thing they classify as open-mindedness here is foreign to me because of the way it gets applied.

I didn't say, didn't even IMPLY that Americans are close-minded. I said that how both cultures approach the concept of open-mindedness is different.

Great how you managed to take a statement of comparison, and twist it around to turn it into a value judgement, because it illustrates exactly the difference in the way both cultures approach things that I was talking about.



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