Is this free speech? (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> Is this free speech? (8/3/2013 1:14:30 AM)

A police chief in pennsylvania was suspended for 30 days without pay by a vote of 5 - 1 from the city council because of videos he made "using borough weapons and ammunition without prior approval."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/pa-police-chief-who-made-profanity-laced-videos-and-fired-guns-suspended-30-days-without-pay/2013/07/31/b8459f74-fa4b-11e2-89f7-8599e3f77a67_story.html

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2013/07/31/pa-police-chief-suspended-after-video-profanities/

For the videos....

http://therightscoop.com/nsfw-pa-police-chief-suspended-after-profanity-laced-videos-attacking-john-kerry-and-libtards-in-general/

Im curious how others feel about this. I have my own opinion, which I will give later.



metamorfosis -> RE: Is this free speech? (8/3/2013 1:44:05 AM)

He's a public figure and his actions made them look bad. If it's At Will Employment, they can do whatever they want. He got off easy. They could fire him (and apparently still might). Imagine if some nutcase saw that video and decided to go postal. He's the chief of police for christ's sake. At very least, his prejudice makes him look unprofessional, and posting it to the internet makes him look stupid. People have been fired for much less.

I feel much worse for the dental assistant who got fired because her boss found her too attractive, although ultimately I agree with the court's decision. Employment At Will means just that.






metamorfosis -> RE: Is this free speech? (8/3/2013 2:14:23 AM)

As police chief he's on contract with the city, so perhaps employment at will doesn't apply.



tweakabelle -> RE: Is this free speech? (8/3/2013 3:12:19 AM)

I have no idea how competent as a police chief this person is but I can say that he does a very convincing impersonation of a psychopath. He seems to have serious anger management issues too.

So the question for me would be: is this lunatic a suitable person to be a police chief? And the only answer to that question is: Definitely not.



DarkSteven -> RE: Is this free speech? (8/3/2013 3:51:02 AM)

"Free speech" is commonly misunderstood. It holds that the government cannot restrict speech of private individuals. It has exceptions for loudness and obnoxiousness (being a public nuisance) and intent to harm (such as yelling "Fire" in a crowded movie theater).

In the example chosen, the police chief is not a private citizen. He is the public face of a municipality that presumably has rules concerning how its officials present in public. It's standard that employers, public and private, would discipline employees who deliberately break rules about how they present. He does not have to agree with his department's views, but he cannot do so publicly.

He seems too dense to understand that or care. The moron even has his website (http://chiefkessler.com/) in which he claims to have pushed legislation (how the hell can a police chief make laws?) that does nothing more than affirm the second amendment.



metamorfosis -> RE: Is this free speech? (8/3/2013 4:00:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
The moron even has his website (http://chiefkessler.com/) in which he claims to have pushed legislation (how the hell can a police chief make laws?) that does nothing more than affirm the second amendment.


He drafted a resolution that called for nullifying federal, state, or local laws that infringe on the 2nd Amendment. The borough council then adopted it.



pahunkboy -> RE: Is this free speech? (8/3/2013 5:00:30 AM)

I am going to split hairs here.


If he was police chief- he should have showed restraint. I thought he was a sheriff- and as such he was just echoing what his people expressed.

A sheriff is the most important post in any county. Also the guy is paid a whopping 20k.

Frankly- I would not be alarmed if my police chief or sheriff said what he did- only to the extent that it was abit public.

Tazz- this is PENNSYLVANIA. Gun toting area. (except Philly, Pitt, Harrisburg) people in PA are armed. That is how it is.


People are also disatisfied with the country the economy and so on- and do not know how to vent this frustration.

If I did suspend him- it sure not would have been a month. BTW_ I did not look at the video. Locally I am satisified with law enforcement- our mayor needs to go- and good news- we got 2 of our guys on the November ballot- you say- our town leadership does not allow dissent of any type. The king rules from on high- it this is not just me talking- many feel that way here including neighbors who seldom get into pol frays.



metamorfosis -> RE: Is this free speech? (8/3/2013 5:21:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
A police chief in pennsylvania was suspended for 30 days without pay by a vote of 5 - 1 from the city council because of videos he made "using borough weapons and ammunition without prior approval."


He also used his police name (Chief Kessler) on the logo for his paramilitary group.



chatterbox24 -> RE: Is this free speech? (8/3/2013 5:22:05 AM)

Yes it is free speech. He had the right to make those videos. But stands a good chance of losing his job.

But he is in public office, and has exposed himself as either or appearing unstable, angry, and disruptive.
This kind of behavior in a person is not who I want representing my county. If they have this kind of hate, how fair are they out there with people in the position they are in. I hope he feels great humiliation for embarrassing his whole police force.



Aylee -> RE: Is this free speech? (8/3/2013 5:26:49 AM)

~Fast Reply~

I did not watch the videos (surprise! I do not watch profanity laden things.) But it looks like from the articles that they were weapons he purchased and fired at a range in Texas while on vacation. All perfectly legal things.

Had the video not gone viral, would this be an issue?

20,000 calls for him being fired? It is a town of 800. This really looks like something that should be a local issue. How does the town of 800 feel about this guy. And I do not mean the city council bowing to outside pressure.

I do mostly agree with DarkSteven. Except, what does the town charter and the state constitution say about political affiliations and employment? Because it looks like the angst is NOT over the profanity but instead of semi-political rant he was making. (Okay, it may have been an all political rant.) I thought that there were some protections in regards to civil service and political affiliation.

On the other hand, it could be worse. Nakoula is still in jail.



metamorfosis -> RE: Is this free speech? (8/3/2013 5:27:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
I am going to split hairs here.
If he was police chief- he should have showed restraint. I thought he was a sheriff- and as such he was just echoing what his people expressed...A sheriff is the most important post in any county.


He is planning on running for sheriff.



pahunkboy -> RE: Is this free speech? (8/3/2013 5:32:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

~Fast Reply~

I did not watch the videos (surprise! I do not watch profanity laden things.) But it looks like from the articles that they were weapons he purchased and fired at a range in Texas while on vacation. All perfectly legal things.

Had the video not gone viral, would this be an issue?

20,000 calls for him being fired? It is a town of 800. This really looks like something that should be a local issue. How does the town of 800 feel about this guy. And I do not mean the city council bowing to outside pressure.

I do mostly agree with DarkSteven. Except, what does the town charter and the state constitution say about political affiliations and employment? Because it looks like the angst is NOT over the profanity but instead of semi-political rant he was making. (Okay, it may have been an all political rant.) I thought that there were some protections in regards to civil service and political affiliation.

On the other hand, it could be worse. Nakoula is still in jail.



You make a stunning point- outsiders views in my town mean NOTHING. Yeah- those folks can make noise- but they go by who lives here- who owns- who you went to school with- your family sur name- who married into which family- how many generations you go back- YES THIS ALL MATTERS in a small town. I have been here since 1988- I am still viewed as an outsider by some.... So BINGO on outsider calls.



metamorfosis -> RE: Is this free speech? (8/3/2013 5:33:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
But it looks like from the articles that they were weapons he purchased and fired at a range in Texas while on vacation. All perfectly legal things.


It said "Kessler said he purchased the ammunition and gun with his own money, among the many items he has funded for the police department."

He was using their gun and ammo, regardless of whether he bought them. And is it legal to fire a fully automatic gun at a gun range?

quote:

...what does the town charter and the state constitution say about political affiliations and employment? Because it looks like the angst is NOT over the profanity but instead of semi-political rant he was making. (Okay, it may have been an all political rant.) I thought that there were some protections in regards to civil service and political affiliation.


It can be argued that he was making a terrorist threat.



pahunkboy -> RE: Is this free speech? (8/3/2013 5:40:41 AM)

A police chief serves at the pleasure of the mayor- as a rule they do not get into political frays.


If he intends to run for sheriff that is a whole new ball game. I think from what it sounds he was brazen- however if he endorses SO and So- that could work.



DomKen -> RE: Is this free speech? (8/3/2013 5:44:13 AM)

Here's my view point, a police chief can have any political views but he must not act or speak in any way that implies or actually favors/disfavors any group of law abiding citizens. If you were a liberal living in that town would you really feel confident that this guy would do his duty on your behalf if you needed it?

This guy is implying that he is the same as Bull Connor except which group he'd like to oppress and threaten with violence.



metamorfosis -> RE: Is this free speech? (8/3/2013 5:48:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
A police chief serves at the pleasure of the mayor- as a rule they do not get into political frays.


I should fucking think so. It's his job to protect everyone.



pahunkboy -> RE: Is this free speech? (8/3/2013 6:19:00 AM)

reading up on it- he has a contract- if it goes anything like a school admin contract- they will never get rid of him. In the valley we have bought out more then one school admin contract- the public get ripped off.



chatterbox24 -> RE: Is this free speech? (8/3/2013 6:44:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

~Fast Reply~

I did not watch the videos (surprise! I do not watch profanity laden things.) But it looks like from the articles that they were weapons he purchased and fired at a range in Texas while on vacation. All perfectly legal things.

Had the video not gone viral, would this be an issue?

20,000 calls for him being fired? It is a town of 800. This really looks like something that should be a local issue. How does the town of 800 feel about this guy. And I do not mean the city council bowing to outside pressure.

I do mostly agree with DarkSteven. Except, what does the town charter and the state constitution say about political affiliations and employment? Because it looks like the angst is NOT over the profanity but instead of semi-political rant he was making. (Okay, it may have been an all political rant.) I thought that there were some protections in regards to civil service and political affiliation.

On the other hand, it could be worse. Nakoula is still in jail.



You make a stunning point- outsiders views in my town mean NOTHING. Yeah- those folks can make noise- but they go by who lives here- who owns- who you went to school with- your family sur name- who married into which family- how many generations you go back- YES THIS ALL MATTERS in a small town. I have been here since 1988- I am still viewed as an outsider by some.... So BINGO on outsider calls.


He publically announced to the world at large his character. BY doing that he officially made it an outsider issue, as well as an insider issue. There are people who will not tolerate this kind of man in office nor should they. He used very poor judgement but he did reveal himself in character, and that is a good thing for the community. Treat all people fairly, I highly doubt a man with this kind of character is fair or rational in situations he doesn't agree with.



pahunkboy -> RE: Is this free speech? (8/3/2013 6:54:01 AM)

^ I am sorry- but that doesnt play here in PA. Outsiders have no voice in local matters. None.

If they did we would be a mini NJ/NYC.



dcnovice -> RE: Is this free speech? (8/3/2013 6:56:33 AM)

quote:

I have no idea how competent as a police chief this person is but I can say that he does a very convincing impersonation of a psychopath. He seems to have serious anger management issues too.

So the question for me would be: is this lunatic a suitable person to be a police chief? And the only answer to that question is: Definitely not.

QFT



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