RE: Showing a Little Initiative

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CertainlyDom -> RE: Showing a Little Initiative (8/8/2013 1:22:27 PM)
I feel a little stupid commenting here since I've never been in a Dom/sub relationship. I'd like to be the Dom if that ever works out for me. But maybe someone will point out the error in my thinking. But this is how I hope a relationship develops for me. At this point I'm not Dom, just Dom hopeful. At this point, no one I communicate with is sub, although I really enjoy the respectful tones and being addressed as "Sir". At some point, I hope to find that mutual relationship and work into it gradually. I'll be telling her what I expect and she'll be telling me her limits. When I decide to take her, I tell her that I want her submission and she will know exactly what that means and how to accept or decline properly. If she accepts, I'll ask her to strip, kneel, and present her wrist for binding and herself for collaring(a ceremony of our commitment). Ceremonies and symbols are very important in my mind because they constantly remind us of our commitment. Then, the training begins, for both of us. Part of that will be full disclosure and total honesty. If we need to formalize something, I'll ask her to journal her thoughts and feelings every day or we'll set aside a time to do that verbally. Those times are available for her to bring things up that she would like or mention things that didn't go well for her. Those times are ceremonial and free of judgement or punishment. As the training progresses, I'll let her know what I think she has mastered and what she can do without direction and I'll encourage some areas of initiative. I don't expect her to need to buy toys, find a third party without being encouraged or anything like that. I expect to bust my butt to see that she gets what she needs and desires and I expect to always know what she needs because I know her inside and out, body and soul. And I will love and cherish her as the wonderful gift she is. Oh, that might include some good thrashings, being bound and used for my pleasure because she will drive me wild with desire. So, initiative doesn't seem important to me. I'll define areas for her. Am I crazy?

JeffBC -> RE: Showing a Little Initiative (8/8/2013 1:55:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CertainlyDom So, initiative doesn't seem important to me. I'll define areas for her. Am I crazy? I think some of us are talking about much broader areas of control than you are. You'd be crazy if you were talking about a TPE relationship unless you believe you can define all of life for her. I sure can't. In specific areas I would see it the way you do. But in the broader context of "life in general" my expectations of Carol are more about being a good follower than blindly obeying. - Do what I meant, not what I said. - In the absence of a command, do what I would have wanted you to do. In other words, I don't want any lawyering out of her. I don't want any weasel words or ridiculous trains of logic about why she did or did not do something because I said yada yada. I expect her to use all her faculty and judgement to support the achievement of my goals. If I've had a long day at work and without any command she greets me at the door in lingerie with a glass of wine that's a good thing.... even if I don't want wine & lingerie right then. If nothing else it says that she was thinking about me and it's an offering of service and love. PS: Your post didn't seem stupid to me. It seemed really practical and level headed. I just think there's a scope issue in the discussion you might not be aware of.

BitaTruble -> RE: Showing a Little Initiative (8/8/2013 2:13:37 PM)
I've spent near two decades getting to know him. Failing to use what I know to his advantage would be an incredibly wasted opportunity. If he wants it done, I do it. Sometimes (lots of times) I know he wants it before he does because I pay more attention to him than he pays to himself. Eh, it's what works for us and since we are both mostly smiling most of the time it's cool.

CertainlyDom -> RE: Showing a Little Initiative (8/8/2013 3:41:01 PM)
I certainly see your points and agree. You are speaking of a mature relationship I think. Less control is needed as time passes. It's often difficult to address all of these complex ideas. It's true that no one can, should, or should want to control all aspects of another's life. It's more a matter for steering a course for the couple. If she meets me with wine and lingerie, she does that because she knows me and knows I like for her to think of me and please me. To me, it's the knowing that gradually replaces control. I will add that I've seen ads of subs that lost their Doms and seemed lost. I wouldn't want that. I would want to plan for an ending, hopefully in my death. And I would want her to be secure and confident that she could be on her own until she found the right relationship, not a dangerous submission. Where TPE/IE is concerned, I would prefer that but I don't see it as practical at my age.

JeffBC -> RE: Showing a Little Initiative (8/8/2013 6:11:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CertainlyDom To me, it's the knowing that gradually replaces control. That's a very astute comment and actually explains why it's hard to see or feel any authority dynamic in our marriage. Heck, by the time we even started M/s we were a couple for 12 years and it's been another 6 or so since. I don't command her and she doesn't obey in about 99.999% of the cases. Usually it's more like fish schooling and I just happen to be the fish out in front. quote: I will add that I've seen ads of subs that lost their Doms and seemed lost. I wouldn't want that. I would want to plan for an ending, hopefully in my death. And I would want her to be secure and confident that she could be on her own until she found the right relationship, not a dangerous submission. Carol is the other half of me in an almost literal sense. Trust me on this because I say it with deep and heartfelt conviction. If she died I'd be lost. That is the price one pays for intimacy and I'm fine with it. But despite the fact that we have a TPE dynamic and I will frequently muddle around inside her mind and rewire stuff to my liking Carol remains a normal functioning human being. Her brain is still wired like all other human brains and all the same general functions occur. If I died she'd be no more lost than she would have were we vanilla. There's nothing inherently dangerous about expansive authority dynamics or internal enslavement. quote: Where TPE/IE is concerned, I would prefer that but I don't see it as practical at my age. OK, you got my curiosity going. Why the heck not? You could bump into a woman like Carol in the grocery store tomorrow and end up with a TPE slave whether or not you ever collared her or discussed BDSM with her. If she loved you she'd obey with no more anything required. Hell, Carol would obey you within limits if she met you as a stranger on the street corner. So why is TPE/IE impractical? Seems like it's just a matter of finding a woman who's got a default-submissive personality then treating her reasonably well.

kalikshama -> RE: Showing a Little Initiative (8/8/2013 7:39:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CertainlyDom Your path wouldn't work for me, but your post was well articulated and I enjoyed reading it. [sm=welcomewave.gif]

CertainlyDom -> RE: Showing a Little Initiative (8/8/2013 7:43:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC There's nothing inherently dangerous about expansive authority dynamics or internal enslavement. I think that's correct. I think there is something dangerous about some Dom/Master individuals. quote: OK, you got my curiosity going. Why the heck not? You could bump into a woman like Carol in the grocery store tomorrow and end up with a TPE slave whether or not you ever collared her or discussed BDSM with her. If she loved you she'd obey with no more anything required. Hell, Carol would obey you within limits if she met you as a stranger on the street corner. So why is TPE/IE impractical? Seems like it's just a matter of finding a woman who's got a default-submissive personality then treating her reasonably well. I realize there is a small chance but probability isn't on my side. First, while many younger women have been exposed to the concepts of submission and see the advantages, my generation was burning bras and fighting for equality. So, considering the fact that most my age that are sub are probably claimed and the fact that many my age were conditioned to fight against male dominance, I just don't see the numbers. I'll also add that IMO many women my age long ago gave up caring what a man found attractive and therefore quit caring for themselves more than they care for cake. They may be looking again but I can't change what turns me on or off and overweight and seriously out of shape just turns me off. I do get approached by women in their 20s and 30s but I always feel like they are just looking for a "sugar daddy". I'm comfortable financially but being loved for money also turns me off. I'd rather be alone. I would consider a woman up to 20 years younger (maybe more if she were genuine). A second big problem is my assumption that a TPE relationship would take a long time to develope.

JeffBC -> RE: Showing a Little Initiative (8/8/2013 8:56:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CertainlyDom A second big problem is my assumption that a TPE relationship would take a long time to develope. Let's start out with "availability". Unless you mean something different than what I mean by "submissive" then I doubt the ratios have changed much in thousands or tens of thousands of years. In fact, I don't think there ARE ratios. There are just relative positions in some pack hierarchy. Cultural conditioning can, of course, work against that but only so far. It's worth noting Carol is a member of your generation. Insofar as "taking time to develop" that depends again on what you mean. But I pretty much took control of key parts of Carol's life within hours of meeting her. Neither of us had ever heard of BDSM. There was no agreement and no consent. There was just my personality and hers interacting. Do we have a deeper dynamic now than then? Sure we do. But if you ask me that question again in another 10 years it'll be the same answer. I doubt there's a finish line anywhere and I'll ever be able to say, "TPE accomplished, check." Totalities are like that :)

CertainlyDom -> RE: Showing a Little Initiative (8/8/2013 9:53:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC It's worth noting Carol is a member of your generation. Ah, but she is taken. And once taken by a good Dom, these women are death do us part. And they seem to capture a man very tightly. So far, in my journeys here, it seems a collar binds 2 people much more firmly and closely than a wedding ring (on average).

BambiBoi -> RE: Showing a Little Initiative (8/9/2013 2:19:20 AM)
I just wanted everyone to know I appreciate their feedback and still have this on my backburners while I grapple with my thoughts.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Showing a Little Initiative (8/9/2013 3:15:27 AM)
Not all s-types want or need or will tolerate anything approaching 'full control.' I don't. I need a great deal of autonomy and I have it. In the end he makes final decisions. I do anticipate his needs to the best of my ability. I serve him with grace and love. But I really, really, don't need someone to tell me to do the dishes or check the bank balance or go grocery shopping or do some meal planning or cook dinner, etc. I have my jobs and my areas of responsibility. I handle them like an adult. If I didn't, he wouldn't assume I was flaunting his authority, he would assume I was sick and take me to the doctor. Some dominants like a person such as myself who shows initiative. But even in showing initiative, there is a point you anticipate and a point you back off. Too much initiative can become manipulative.

CertainlyDom -> RE: Showing a Little Initiative (8/9/2013 7:55:24 AM)
This thread has been good to help me organize my thoughts on a very complex topic. So, more on control. Many people are upset about recent stories of government surveillance of all electronic communications. I tell those people that the mass of those communications make it impossible for anyone to monitor it all. I feel the same about control of another person. The complexity of a life makes it impossible and undesirable to control everything. It's a responsibility to large to bear in the long run. I've mentioned before that I believe knowledge replaces control over the life of a relationship. Ideally, with perfect knowledge, control would reduce to zero. But perfect knowledge is unattainable so some control will always exist. I think a Dom would release control gradually as understanding/knowledge increased. To me the goal is not control. The goal is to know someone inside-out, body and soul with understanding and acceptance.

JeffBC -> RE: Showing a Little Initiative (8/9/2013 8:17:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CertainlyDom To me the goal is not control. The goal is to know someone inside-out, body and soul with understanding and acceptance. I've always thought it was odd for a dominant to have "control" as a goal. Clearly such a person means something different by "dominant" than I do. I've always controlled my life. It's nothing new or special or even remarkable. Your goal is similar to mine... it was "to bind us ever closer together and insofar as possible make us one". That's exactly why I reach inside her mind so casually. I see it as my mind. There is no spot that is "Carol's spot"... not even deep inside. Insofar as "controlling another person's life" again that depends on how you mean it. At the micro level? Hell no. I can't even control my own life at the micro-level. At the macro-level? Yes. As a stupid example, if I wanted Carol to eat more chicken I could: A) Command her to eat chicken every time we sit down to eat. B) Give her a general command to eat more chicken. C) Give her a command to like chicken more. I go for option (C).

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Showing a Little Initiative (8/9/2013 8:52:43 AM)
Actually in our relationship he hasn't released control gradually. Quite the opposite, he has more and more established areas of control over me. This is a direct result of him knowing me better. For instance, he knows I hate doctor's appointments, so I have to ask permission to cancel an appointment. He established that as a rule after observing my behavior and realizing this is an area I'm weak in. I'm not allowed to buy purses or shoes w/o his permission. (Gee, I wonder where that rule came from, I've no idea.) He has carefully picked and chosen things where I am weak or tend to get a little out of control. This works for us.

JeffBC -> RE: Showing a Little Initiative (8/9/2013 9:01:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt Actually in our relationship he hasn't released control gradually. Quite the opposite, he has more and more established areas of control over me. This is a direct result of him knowing me better. I could be wrong but I think we're talking at cross-purposes because I could agree with this statement also. Yes, I control Carol's life deeply and pervasively and that works exactly because I do know her so. But in return, she knows me and we have become one. You can't "command" yourself. That's why it doesn't feel like "control" so much. Perhaps it's the absence of tension in the leash? In the previous post I was talking more about the "feel" of it than the net result.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Showing a Little Initiative (8/9/2013 9:29:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC Does it feel like topping from the bottom? We both think that concept is ludicrous. I do, too. Why is it ludicrous? I do that all the time...

RaspberryLemon -> RE: Showing a Little Initiative (8/9/2013 9:29:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BambiBoi At a recent munchette we discussed what is most attractive in a submissive. My response was "showing initiative" (both vanilla and during play). Ignoring times when the command specifically prohibits showing initiative, how do you feel about it? I take initiative in our relationship all the time. It feels natural to me to do things for him out of love and service even without instruction from him. I want to please him and make him happy. quote: Do you feel less submissive doing things without being told? No, not at all. quote: Does it feel like topping from the bottom? Again, no. Like others have said, I find the "topping from the bottom" concept pretty absurd. quote: Do you think it reflects laziness on behalf of the top? Certainly not. If he never instructed me, then it might seem "lazy" (or perhaps that he didn't have any desire to be the leader) but as it is now, there is both a good amount of instruction from him and initiative from me, and it balances out quite well, I think. quote: Is showing initiative been rewarded in your dynamic? Yes. He likes knowing that I am thinking of him and trying to make him happy, even when he hasn't specifically asked for something. It's thoughtfulness, and he appreciates that. And I like being able to show affection and love like that. I like being able to surprise him or do something nice for him even if he didn't ask for it. So long as I am acting out of a desire to please, even if I do something that he ends up not wanting, the thought is still appreciated. He would much rather me try to do nice things for him on my own and occasionally be offered something he didn't want at the time than always have to instruct me in order for me to please him. quote: To clarify what I mean by "showing initiative" here are some hypothetical examples: -Shopping online for new toys/kinks/scenes. -Unsolicited massages/cooking/laundry/shoe shining -Initiating sex, specifically the more one-sided sex acts. -If you're poly, finding a potential new playmate. -Taking "your place" whether it be kneeling, in Top's lap, on a doggy bed. -Volunteering to drive someone to the airport. -Making and bringing tea without being asked (falls under "unsolicited domestic stuff above, I suppose) These are all things that I do/might do. -I won't buy stuff without asking, but I'll shop and look around online for things that he might like/we might enjoy together. -I do "unsolicited domestic stuff"--I like to cook and love to surprise him with tasty treats and things, often times I will ask if he'd like a back rub or even just start giving him one while he is sitting or laying down, etc. -I do initiate sex and other forms of physical affection; he likes that I show my desire for him, and I like being able to do so...if I were not allowed to touch him without permission, I would feel that would stifle intimacy and I wouldn't get to feel as "close" (and feeling close is something very important to both of us.) -Often times I will come sit at his feet and put my head in his lap. Etc. quote: Alternatively, no submissive wants to be topping themselves for very long. Ad absurbium, no submissive wants to pick the crop, put it in the Top's hand, and hurry into position before the arm swings down only to set up this absurd scenario again. What is the line for you? What actions fall under the province of the Top that you think "it's not my place to act/plan/do without orders." (This is obviously different per relationship, so if you'd share I'm asking you specifically). I'm not sure that there is any specific "line" for us. It all comes down to circumstance. In the absence of instruction, I'm supposed to do what I think he would want. So I just use my best judgment. If I think that he wouldn't want me to take initiative on x, y, or z, I will refrain, or ask him first. quote: Would you be comfortable being required to do more? It depends on how much more. I do think that if I were required to take MUCH more initiative than I already to, I might wind up feeling a little "lost" or absent direction.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Showing a Little Initiative (8/9/2013 9:37:21 AM)
There's no tension in this leash, either ! It's pure joy for both of us. But I think that's the result of great compatibility and a solid relationship of long standing.

JeffBC -> RE: Showing a Little Initiative (8/9/2013 9:46:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar Why is it ludicrous? I do that all the time... Yes... but to be fair you're relationship is a bit non-standard, no? I mean... my loose understanding is that there isn't what I'd call an authority dynamic in play. There is a punishment dynamic. So perhaps I'd amend the statement to say, "In the presence of an authority dynamic the party who wishes control must obtain and cultivate it. If he fails to do so it's not the sub's problem. They didn't want authority." In more loose terms and the way it's generally used in BDSM I see it much like "training". The concept itself is supportable but the application is ridiculous.

theshytype -> RE: Showing a Little Initiative (8/9/2013 11:13:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble I've spent near two decades getting to know him. Failing to use what I know to his advantage would be an incredibly wasted opportunity. If he wants it done, I do it. Sometimes (lots of times) I know he wants it before he does because I pay more attention to him than he pays to himself. Eh, it's what works for us and since we are both mostly smiling most of the time it's cool. Something I failed to consider in my previous post is exactly this. I've been with him for 14 years and I do, also, pay more attention to what he wants than he does. For me, continued rejection towards the anticipatory would be disheartening over a short amount of time. My taking initiative didn't happen over night, instead over years of learning.

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