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Any wonder why militias are forming in the US? - 8/7/2013 3:57:44 AM   
Real0ne


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In State ex rel. Strykowski v. Wilkie, 81 Wis. 2d 491, 261 N.W.2d 434 (1978), the court reiterated the well-established rule that a party who challenges a statutory classification carries a heavy burden of persuasion.

"`. . . It is not enough that respondent establish doubt as to the act's constitutionality nor is it sufficient that respondent establish the unconstitutionality of the act as a probability. Unconstitutionality of the act must be demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt. Every presumption [not fact] must be indulged to sustain the law if at all possible and, wherever doubt exists as to a legislative enactment's constitutionality, it must be resolved in favor of constitutionality.

This court has often affirmed the well-established presumption of constitutionality that attaches itself to all legislative acts . . . .' quoting State ex rel. Hammermill Co. v. La Plante, 58 Wis. 2d 32, 46, 205 N.W.2d 784 (1973)." Id. at 506.



Now for those who do not know the legislatures of this nation are under no obligation what so ever to write law that is constitutional and the test is what can be pushed through the courts instead, and that is a fact.

The courts simply "PRESUME" that "EVERYTHING" the legislature enacts is constitutional when the legislature has no obligation what so ever to do so, (wtf is up with that?), hence when you go to court you need to oversome that presumption! Starting to see a problem in dodge yet?

Worse intent is nearly impossible to prove, look at the zimmerman case and the thread that never dies.

So tell me peeps when you have a gripe and want to claim a law is unconstitutional how would you defeat this kind of prejudiced stacked deck of cards that you need to go up against?

When you talk with people about this they sum it up as government being over the cliff and the only thing that will fix it is to go to guns because when they kick the bums out it does not change the legacy of residue left behind by the previous set of bums.

So I want to hear how YOU THINK you can change anything the legislatures in this country has done.

So lets find the magic formula so we can tell the gun toters of this nation who think its beyond repair something positive to look forward to.






< Message edited by Real0ne -- 8/7/2013 4:00:36 AM >


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RE: Any wonder why militias are forming in the US? - 8/7/2013 6:59:37 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

So I want to hear how YOU THINK you can change anything the legislatures in this country has done.


Elect legislators who will repeal it all. Unfortunately, they're either unelectable or marginalized. That leaves only one path, being both dangerous and uncertain.

The die has been cast, the Titanic has struck the berg, and there is no escape. It's historically inevitable.




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RE: Any wonder why militias are forming in the US? - 8/7/2013 7:44:34 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

That leaves only one path, being both dangerous and uncertain.

The die has been cast, the Titanic has struck the berg, and there is no escape. It's historically inevitable.


This sounds like your view is that the outstanding issues that concern you cannot be resolved democratically and that some kind of armed rebellion is "historically inevitable". That sounds ominously close to armed insurrection against the Constitutional Govt.

How is breaking the Constitution in order to uphold it any different from the Govt taking away your rights in order to "defend them", as your politicians did when they passed the Patriot Act?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 8/7/2013 7:48:23 AM >


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RE: Any wonder why militias are forming in the US? - 8/7/2013 8:13:32 AM   
mnottertail


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Good for wisconsin, hopefully they will make better cheese.

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RE: Any wonder why militias are forming in the US? - 8/7/2013 9:30:33 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
So tell me peeps when you have a gripe and want to claim a law is unconstitutional how would you defeat this kind of prejudiced stacked deck of cards that you need to go up against?

You can't. The sellout of the supreme court was my last ray of hope gone. It's one of the things I like about Canada. Much as we have some of these same problems Canada's supreme court seems to still take it's duty to protect their ?charter? (constitution) seriously and is more than happy to get heavy handed with the rest of the govt if it gets recalcitrant.

quote:

So I want to hear how YOU THINK you can change anything the legislatures in this country has done.

I don't have an answer. I think things are going to need to get much, much worse before they get better. The sheeple are not sufficiently agitated yet to stampede. I'm kind of curious if we'll get a world war out of this before it all ends. For now, I try to inform people to help get them "sufficiently agitated".

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RE: Any wonder why militias are forming in the US? - 8/7/2013 10:48:04 AM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

That leaves only one path, being both dangerous and uncertain.
The die has been cast, the Titanic has struck the berg, and there is no escape. It's historically inevitable.

This sounds like your view is that the outstanding issues that concern you cannot be resolved democratically and that some kind of armed rebellion is "historically inevitable". That sounds ominously close to armed insurrection against the Constitutional Govt.

How is breaking the Constitution in order to uphold it any different from the Govt taking away your rights in order to "defend them", as your politicians did when they passed the Patriot Act?


People will use anything to justify murder; makes it feel 'correct' when slaughtering their fellow citizen. Africa has many examples of fellow citizens butchering each other, while at the same time defining the slaughter-es have having some 'evil' presence about them.

I find many conservatives are quick to slam the President for example. His approval rating is around 48%. So for everyone one person that thinks he's doing a decent/good job, there is another that feel he's doing a poor/miserable job. But compare that to the Republicans in Congress with their 12% approval rating; and conservatives are totally silent. I keep trying to understand how a group of people, bitching about government waste, throwing tax payer money away, and 'fiscal conservative' behavior; give the entire GOP such a free ride when bashing the President. One would think, if their 'beliefs' were real and not fake, they would be tearing the GOP in Congress four times as often and harsher as they do the President. When you give someone a huge amount of power without regulating how they wield it, nor being responsible or accountable.....don't be surprised.....when they use that power in a non-American manner. Most Democrats seem willing to play ball, while Republicans seem to demand everyone cave in to their ideology....or else!


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RE: Any wonder why militias are forming in the US? - 8/7/2013 12:07:30 PM   
Termyn8or


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quote:

So I want to hear how YOU THINK you can change anything the legislatures in this country has done.


I read where a poll of registered voters had 29.4 % of the respondents replied that they believed that an armed revolution might be necessary in this country "in a few years". I don't put much weight in these things but consider that these were not uber-radical separatists living in the mountains somewhere, there were registered voters. To go through the process of registering to vote, which CAN be used against you in certain cases, one would assume that these people still had some faith in the system, but of course had their doubts.

Couple that number with the joke going arouind that North korea has a higher approval rating than congress now, and the situation does look bleak. There are a nuber of poster on this board and FL who are with the system 100 %, who believe in it and would actually fight for it, even in the face of up over half of the people in this country being against it. Much of the US military is on psyche drugs now and I happen to know something of what they do. I had a friend until he got on them. He is now aloof, and in a position to release things from his employment, like ebola for example. This is not good. People get on these drugs and they are no longer grounded in reality, so thinking that the military would support the people in a real confrontation is a shot in the dark at best. If the top brass who issues the orders were to go against the government as they have in other countries we would have a real chance, but the system treats them so well the only hope is for them to grow a real conscience. Fat chance in that kind of fertilizer.

The fact is that nobody in either of the two entrenched parties is trustable or will act in the People's interest, give it up. Forget it. Then we have the problem of the sheeple who will not vote for a third party candidate because that would take a vote away from one of the normal lesser of two evils.

In short, there are no short term solutions. I've considered many. In younger days I considered a new million Man march, one which would include all races and just march on Washington with a list of demands. there are some who want to do that armed, but that shouldn't be necessary. Guns are for picking them off from the rooftops and shit, the People will never win an armed confrontation. the only hope there is to make it practically impossible to go about day to day governance. Cause it to be impossible to evict or forclose, even to shut off utilities, to satisfy warrants and such. To this day many people find it hard to believe that there are places that cops dare not go, but I can not only prove it, I can take you there in this city. This is not the same as the argument with Ken here, there ARE such places in this town and guess what. In many cases the cops WILL go there, but only off duty.

There are some non-violent options at this point, well not completely non-violent. One would be to get our own peole into governemt at the federal level. this would take alot of time and many of them would have to be sleepers. You can't send one Man into that den of vipers because he would at best be marginalized like Ron Paul or Dennis Kucinich, or out and out framed like Trafficant. They WILL get rid of the squeaky wheel. And don't start about Trafficant, I KNOW he was framed, period. And I know why.

So we get these people, in the space of about six years, who will vote as a block and do pretty much what Ron Paul did, vote against anything unconstitutional, but also leave abortion the fuck alone. As good as he would have been for this country, he made a BAD mistake poisoning himself on the abortion issue. See, everything the democrats stand for turns my fucking stomach, but I believe there should be abortomats on every corner, with the defaul option of a tubal ligation sort of like a hot wax at the car wash. If you can't stop fucking, be killing. Sound silly ? How many crack babies have YOU adopted ? The point is that almost any candidate for anything has one fatal flaw, people have to realize that they are not electing a dictator. At least not to congress.

Another option is a nationwide strike. The problem with that is jobs are so hard to come by, people are too replaceable. Even me. People say that losing one day's revenue wwould hurt "them" immensely but that is not true. It might hurt the government but not the leeches who have occupied it. See all of them are set for life and this is just a power game that feeds their addiction. Once you understand that as one of their prime motives you understand why they do what they do, and then they are quite predictable. Starve them, no more cars and TVs and shit like that. Live ike a hundred years ago. Conserve everytghing and avoid supporting the "economy". When money moves they take some of it, like a bird or other species' that have eyes that react to movement. Think of them as that type of predator and be stil. Or keep your money still. Don't keep it in the banks, in fact DO spend it. On fuel, generators, food, tools (which includes kiling tools). Starve the beast.

One other option is the states' rights angle. this would not be all that easy, but which option is anyway ? Seriously, you know that all fifty states have put in for secession. Of course those measures were symbolic but think abou it. With the ambiguities concerning tax laws, let states opt out and just take the fed protion of the taxes and become independent. Let the militias of said states defend agianst the feds. They would be standing between the federal JBTs and their elected representatives. this plan's chances of success are tha tit is easier to elect on a state level. In fact that's why the Constitution had state legislators electing senators, not the general populace. this also assured some attention to states' rights, which was the intent. The federal government reall y wasn't supposed to be much more than what the EU was sold as. Ask Europeans NOW, many of them are sorry they got into that mess. It weas sold as a trade agreement but what trade agreement has a 700 page constitution and tries to manipulate the laws of member states ?

See the parallel ? So if People woulld actully get serious about supporting states' rights, the federal government could become marginalized to the point where, well, it would be in line ith what it was intended to be.

Does any of this sound appealing to you ? Does any of it sound easy ? No, it is neither. It took a long hard time to make this fucking mess and it is not going to get cleaned up anytime soon.

More some other time.

T^T

(Not edited to add that I need to post it to edit it because the font ois bigger and I can see the MF. Would you believe that I can still shoot pretty straight ? If I find too many errors I will edit)

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RE: Any wonder why militias are forming in the US? - 8/7/2013 12:14:39 PM   
Termyn8or


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Up ere, "member states" should read "signatories".


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RE: Any wonder why militias are forming in the US? - 8/7/2013 1:13:20 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
I read where a poll of registered voters had 29.4 % of the respondents replied that they believed that an armed revolution might be necessary in this country "in a few years".

I'd agree with that... not certain what a few years might mean but it's looking like the only way out.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Any wonder why militias are forming in the US? - 8/7/2013 1:53:40 PM   
Termyn8or


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You may have noticed that I have given peaceful options quite a bit of thought.

The breakup of the US it a scary prospect for many, but why ? Really. Pushing hard for states' rights and no longer being a superpower seems to work for alot of countries, no ?

The only thing to fear actually is revenge, but if we give up the culprits to those who want to punish them, unlike the Shah of Iran, maybe they will be cool with us.

Somethig better happen or else US citizens won't be safe anywhere in the world.

T^T

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RE: Any wonder why militias are forming in the US? - 8/7/2013 2:08:18 PM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

That leaves only one path, being both dangerous and uncertain.

The die has been cast, the Titanic has struck the berg, and there is no escape. It's historically inevitable.


This sounds like your view is that the outstanding issues that concern you cannot be resolved democratically and that some kind of armed rebellion is "historically inevitable". That sounds ominously close to armed insurrection against the Constitutional Govt.

How is breaking the Constitution in order to uphold it any different from the Govt taking away your rights in order to "defend them", as your politicians did when they passed the Patriot Act?



Breaking the Constitution in order to uphold it? Just what the hell do you think the 2nd Amendment is for? Duck hunting?

And it's a far cry from the government violating, i.e. 4th and 5th, Amendments in order to defend them.

If there be insurrection against the Constitution, it's the government which is in that position. And as such is quite evident, even to a blind man, how can a ~rogue government be considered Constitutional? One would have to subscribe to the oxymoron you postulate.


edit: It won't even take armed insurrection. The country will split up along political / demographic lines when the whole thing collapses under its own hubris.



< Message edited by Yachtie -- 8/7/2013 2:24:10 PM >


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“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

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