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Value of Wall Street - 8/8/2013 10:27:30 AM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

I readily admit I came this understanding way later than I should've but yeah, pretty much Wall Street is nothing but sociopathic parasites.


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There are others of this opinion. There is http://www.whoispeterjoseph.com/. http://www.thevenusproject.com/jacque-fresco is figured prominently in his films. The assertion seems radical and difficult to believe. Convince me. Some of what Jacque Fresco has to say seems true, but is it the whole truth?
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RE: Value of Wall Street - 8/8/2013 1:04:08 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM
Convince me. Some of what Jacque Fresco has to say seems true, but is it the whole truth?

This is a big enough issue that I doubt you can be "convinced" that it is true. What I can do is point out some of my reasoning and you'll have to want to read and learn a LOT more because the topic of "currency" in an of itself is a deep, deep topic and that's before you even get into things like monetary supply and banking.

A) Practical reality
Now bear with me here because i understand there are flaws in the generalization. But if we look at what has actually occurred what we see is a bunch of folks who pulled off the biggest heist in history then told government, "We're too big to fail" (after having failed, of course). So I think I'm pretty comfortable with saying "Wall Street in it's existing carnation are sociopathic parasites". But does that mean the entire thing is necessarily corrupt or does it just mean we need to clean up the corruption?

B) The corruption is deep and system
If you're going to try to clean up the corruption you've got an issue because it is pervasive. Surely you can't believe that the very bright minds inventing those "financial instruments" didn't understand they were all ponzi schemes? Surely you can't believe that when the insurers insured thousands (?millions?) of times more than they could actually pay out they didn't know it was a sham? Let's look at those credit agencies now... you think they didn't understand exactly what they are doing (and continue to do)? How about the regulators? Come on... these are a lot of bright people and the whole scheme was ludicrous on the face of it. You had collusion all across the boards to rig the game so they could skim trillions of dollars out of the system and that was not accidental.. it could nt have been. It was too orchestrated.

C) So what do they do?
Well, largely, they play games on computer screens to print money. The only feasible "product" they provide is a mechanism for easing money flow. But man they sure do a crappy job at that, don't they... even when we give them money and they promise to use it to this purpose. BUt ask yourself what exactly is wall street providing other than a rigged casino game. You do understand, right, that the stock market is rigged on any number of levels starting right out with the fact that the big players know the future and you don't. I mean that literally. They get data much, much, much faster than you or I do (at least in computer trading terms). Even milliseconds of advantage is a HUGE asset. And yes, people pay more to be PHYSICALLY closer to the computers because the timing is so tight now that even normal runs of network cable introduce enough latency for this sort of trading/cheating.

So I ask you... for all their yachts and mansions, what exactly do these people add to our society? They aren't making anything... not even intellectual property. What ARE they contributing. On what basis would you say they are anything other than a parasite?

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
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RE: Value of Wall Street - 8/8/2013 2:50:31 PM   
MrRodgers


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Status: offline 		To add to the trend...society serves wall street, [It] has no intention or requirement to serve society at all. These partnerships and all corporations have a legal fiduciary responsibility to maximize profits in any legal way. They throw $million at K. St and many get $30 for every dollar of free speech [sic] they throw at these whores...to make it all legal.

As for the OP...the money that corporate America is borrowing is to pay stock dividends inspired by the greed of the investor class. That greed has them salivating on all of those beautiful profits but know full well that money is offshore so as not be taxed when brought back to America. To these guys...there is no America.

Being offshore, that cannot be distributed to stockholders as dividends so, why not borrow the money and distribute that...tax free to the corp. Yes, Bernanke is helping with low rates but so what ? There was a time when those profits were brought back and taxed.

But then, that was when a husband alone could completely provide for a family of 6 on about $8-10,000/yr. Gee, I wonder why. Gotta love capitalism.

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RE: Value of Wall Street - 8/8/2013 5:14:19 PM   
BenevolentM


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Status: offline 		ZEITGEIST: MOVING FORWARD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
At 8 minutes 29 - 33 seconds you get the best line in the film. You have got to love Jacque Fresco just for that line.

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RE: Value of Wall Street - 8/8/2013 5:40:30 PM   
RottenJohnny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

There are others of this opinion. There is http://www.whoispeterjoseph.com/. http://www.thevenusproject.com/jacque-fresco is figured prominently in his films. The assertion seems radical and difficult to believe. Convince me. Some of what Jacque Fresco has to say seems true, but is it the whole truth?


Are you asking for a critique of the Venus Project?

_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

(in reply to BenevolentM)
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RE: Value of Wall Street - 8/8/2013 5:40:51 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
B) The corruption is deep and system
If you're going to try to clean up the corruption you've got an issue because it is pervasive. Surely you can't believe that the very bright minds inventing those "financial instruments" didn't understand they were all ponzi schemes? Surely you can't believe that when the insurers insured thousands (?millions?) of times more than they could actually pay out they didn't know it was a sham? Let's look at those credit agencies now... you think they didn't understand exactly what they are doing (and continue to do)? How about the regulators? Come on... these are a lot of bright people and the whole scheme was ludicrous on the face of it. You had collusion all across the boards to rig the game so they could skim trillions of dollars out of the system and that was not accidental.. it could nt have been. It was too orchestrated.

C) So what do they do?
Well, largely, they play games on computer screens to print money. The only feasible "product" they provide is a mechanism for easing money flow. But man they sure do a crappy job at that, don't they... even when we give them money and they promise to use it to this purpose. BUt ask yourself what exactly is wall street providing other than a rigged casino game. You do understand, right, that the stock market is rigged on any number of levels starting right out with the fact that the big players know the future and you don't. I mean that literally. They get data much, much, much faster than you or I do (at least in computer trading terms). Even milliseconds of advantage is a HUGE asset. And yes, people pay more to be PHYSICALLY closer to the computers because the timing is so tight now that even normal runs of network cable introduce enough latency for this sort of trading/cheating.

So I ask you... for all their yachts and mansions, what exactly do these people add to our society? They aren't making anything... not even intellectual property. What ARE they contributing. On what basis would you say they are anything other than a parasite?

If the govt would restrict banks just to banking so that they could not speculate & take major risks & if the govt would require more reasonable amount of cash-to-loans then they would not be too big to fail.. a lot of what went wrong wouldnt have happened.. I wonder if they are still in bad shape today cuz the govt changed the rules so that they didnt need to sell off foreclosed property as fire-sale prices which they couldnt do and still stay liquid.. imo..

Wall street's original purpose was to facilitate business and help businesses get the money to start-up or expand, and that would be a benefit to society by helping to create more jobs, stimulating the economy, etc etc.. That doesnt make the evil but the fact that the govt has let them be in control and turned a blind eye to the corruption, that was evil.. and it happened cuz the govt is corrupt..

speaking of which.. how can the govt complain about the wall street/banksters ponzi schemes when at $17 tillion in debt, that is exactly what the govt itself is doing, just as a ponzi scheme can never be paid off, the govt is paying out its old debt with new debt but never any intention of paying it off..

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RE: Value of Wall Street - 8/8/2013 6:03:32 PM   
RottenJohnny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

ZEITGEIST: MOVING FORWARD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
At 8 minutes 29 - 33 seconds you get the best line in the film. You have got to love Jacque Fresco just for that line.


How about quoting it for those of us that still don't have high-speed internet.

_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

(in reply to BenevolentM)
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RE: Value of Wall Street - 8/8/2013 6:09:45 PM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

Are you asking for a critique of the Venus Project?


I see a world that is interconnected. Zeitgeist, Venus Project, and the sentiment that Wall Street is a parasite seem to go together like bread, jam, and peanut butter. A critique of the Venus Project I feel would indeed help advance the topic of this thread.

The Venus Project seems to take an objective rational point of view where Jacque Fresco runs around like a modern day Socrates. Some of what he says I cannot disagree with, but as the tape continues to run especially with Peter Joseph you get these remarkable assertions that don't seem fully substantiated. Jacque Fresco is more intellectually honest in my opinion. With Jacque Fresco you get the sense that he is advancing a hypothesis and something potentially worth trying whereas Peter Joseph is more of an ideolog.

It seems more reasonable for example to advance the hypothesis that Wall Street may not be as necessary as we presuppose than to say that it is a parasite. With such a hypothesis it becomes present your evidence. Maybe you have a point.

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RE: Value of Wall Street - 8/8/2013 6:15:26 PM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

How about quoting it for those of us that still don't have high-speed internet.


It is one of those audio visual experiences that is best experienced in its original matrix, but for those who don't still have high-speed internet, Jacque Fresco says in a most dramatic fashion, "This shit has got to go."

(in reply to RottenJohnny)
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RE: Value of Wall Street - 8/8/2013 6:26:19 PM   
JeffBC


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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
If the govt would restrict banks just to banking so that they could not speculate & take major risks & if the govt would require more reasonable amount of cash-to-loans then they would not be too big to fail.. a lot of what went wrong wouldnt have happened.. I wonder if they are still in bad shape today cuz the govt changed the rules so that they didnt need to sell off foreclosed property as fire-sale prices which they couldnt do and still stay liquid.. imo..

If we returned banking to meaning banking then it wouldn't hardly be wall street anymore *laughs* There are deeper questions though regarding currency design and monetary policy which also trouble me. But those things would be massive changes to the system and probably not feasible. But you're right... if we could somehow clean up wall street then they might not be sociopathic parasites anymore. We could throw all those in jail and get some honest bankers.

quote:

Wall street's original purpose was to facilitate business and help businesses get the money to start-up or expand, and that would be a benefit to society by helping to create more jobs, stimulating the economy, etc etc.. That doesnt make the evil but the fact that the govt has let them be in control and turned a blind eye to the corruption, that was evil.. and it happened cuz the govt is corrupt..

I'd argue it's because the are wedded in corruption together but yeah more or less I agree. I meant to be commenting on ACTUAL wall street not the theoretical model.

quote:

speaking of which.. how can the govt complain about the wall street/banksters ponzi schemes when at $17 tillion in debt, that is exactly what the govt itself is doing, just as a ponzi scheme can never be paid off, the govt is paying out its old debt with new debt but never any intention of paying it off..

Sure they will. Their plan is to steal money from seniors to pay off their largesse.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to tj444)
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RE: Value of Wall Street - 8/8/2013 6:45:36 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

speaking of which.. how can the govt complain about the wall street/banksters ponzi schemes when at $17 tillion in debt, that is exactly what the govt itself is doing, just as a ponzi scheme can never be paid off, the govt is paying out its old debt with new debt but never any intention of paying it off..

Sure they will. Their plan is to steal money from seniors to pay off their largesse.


seniors have enough to pay off $17 trillion??? hmmm.. I think I should find me some seniors and steal their mattresses before the govt does!

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

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RE: Value of Wall Street - 8/8/2013 8:30:02 PM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

... the govt is paying out its old debt with new debt but never any intention of paying it off..


I suspect it has no intention to paying it off because it isn't real. I suspect when the time comes the debit will mysteriously in large part simply vanish.

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RE: Value of Wall Street - 8/8/2013 8:39:53 PM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

... the govt is paying out its old debt with new debt but never any intention of paying it off..


I suspect it has no intention to paying it off because it isn't real. I suspect when the time comes the debit will mysteriously in large part simply vanish.


Ask yourself given the amount of debit why are we not experiencing hyper-inflation? The reason is simple: The money was never spent. Since it was never spent it can be returned unspent once the crisis is over.

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RE: Value of Wall Street - 8/8/2013 9:16:32 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

... the govt is paying out its old debt with new debt but never any intention of paying it off..


I suspect it has no intention to paying it off because it isn't real. I suspect when the time comes the debit will mysteriously in large part simply vanish.


Ask yourself given the amount of debit why are we not experiencing hyper-inflation? The reason is simple: The money was never spent. Since it was never spent it can be returned unspent once the crisis is over.

Our debt on the federal level is a mere 3% of our entire debt and 4% of GDP now. Not nearly enough to make that much of a difference. Plus, for inflation to take hold, the money needs to be there somewhere and it isn't.

Not a big deal but no money as been added into circulation either.

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RE: Value of Wall Street - 8/8/2013 11:06:14 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

... the govt is paying out its old debt with new debt but never any intention of paying it off..


I suspect it has no intention to paying it off because it isn't real. I suspect when the time comes the debit will mysteriously in large part simply vanish.


Ask yourself given the amount of debit why are we not experiencing hyper-inflation? The reason is simple: The money was never spent. Since it was never spent it can be returned unspent once the crisis is over.

Our debt on the federal level is a mere 3% of our entire debt and 4% of GDP now. Not nearly enough to make that much of a difference. Plus, for inflation to take hold, the money needs to be there somewhere and it isn't.

Not a big deal but no money as been added into circulation either.



that does not make sense.

If they pump a trillion bucks into the system and I put 1/2 trill in my pocket, they replace it the price of everything just doubled.

I do not follow how you came to that conclusion as inflation is money being removed from circulation by any means.








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RE: Value of Wall Street - 8/8/2013 11:22:00 PM   
PetBoyOwner


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
that does not make sense.

If they pump a trillion bucks into the system and I put 1/2 trill in my pocket, they replace it the price of everything just doubled.

I do not follow how you came to that conclusion as inflation is money being removed from circulation by any means.









Congratulations, you've discovered what exponential growth looks like on a linear scale!

I mean, look at what the U.S. leaving the gold standard did to world population!



Look how much faster the population grows after the end of the gold standard!

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RE: Value of Wall Street - 8/9/2013 12:02:45 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PetBoyOwner
Look how much faster the population grows after the end of the gold standard!


weez jes fuckin like wabbits!

tell me this linear regressed stochastic is NOT what was shown to us as youngsters in school with 3% being no problemo what so ever? Of course they forgot to mention the effects of compounding!




they sold us the above snake oil when in fact




there is still deflation only the money continues to inflate and is never returned to the source, and can never hit zero like it did in the gold standard days!

So who has it?

every time the money regained its "value" through our sweat and blood, that was not good enough they wanted us dead on top of it and started a war forcing us into debt so the slaves can start the cycle of insanity all over again while we pay for the military banking and greater increases in government that always follow along with their buddies who extort money from the slaves to repay the debt THEY fucking made for THEIR benefit and THEIR interests. Where would we be without a constitution eh?




oldest scam on the planet second to none and dumb fuck americans fall for it time and time again.





< Message edited by Real0ne -- 8/9/2013 12:16:26 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to PetBoyOwner)
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RE: Value of Wall Street - 8/9/2013 6:52:40 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
oldest scam on the planet


yup.. the govt wants people to forget about the devaluation of the US dollar and forget that the govt keeps changing how it calculates the inflation rate to make inflation seem much lower than it really is..

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RE: Value of Wall Street - 8/9/2013 7:02:46 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		Actually, the entire concept of the stock market is brilliant. It accomplishes two vital things:

1. It allows business access to capital.
2. It allows people to own businesses. Note how crappy things are in centralized governments, where the government owns the means of production.

To see how important access to capital is, look at the Arab countries. The people with money are content to live on royalties. The people with energy and ambition cannot get capital to start and grow businesses.

The problem is that, since there is so much money involved, corruption crept in.

At this point, it might be best to set up a different, highly regulated stock market, and shut down the one we're using.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: Value of Wall Street - 8/9/2013 12:00:21 PM   
BenevolentM


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Status: offline 		Perhaps we have nothing to complain about because people are no good. Consequently, it isn't Wall Street that is the problem. Has anyone ever dealt with an unruly misbehaved person before? An unruly misbehaved person will abuse you. Wall Street is abusive and so is most everyone who is posting to this thread.

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