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Debt ceiling before the spin - 8/8/2013 9:32:11 PM

MrRodgers

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Sept....the debt ceiling again ?

Before you get started..."Why have a debt-ceiling statute...it never works ?" James Buckley former Sen. C-NY. Yep, the first and only senator ever elected from the Conservative party. Here's why what's coming will be bullshit.

The so-called 'debt ceiling' is nothing more than a statutory exercise in self-deception. A ceiling is defined as the uppermost level something or someone could attain. So let's take a look at historical debt 'ceilings.'

First, what is known as the federal debt ceiling exists only in the abstract. That is, it exists only on paper as a federal statute. Now all statutes are subject to change by the same majority that could enact it. In that vain, when has the govt. not added to the federal debt and thus raised the debt ceiling when it just decided to do so ? Never.

Certainly not in the last century. At least not until 2011 has lifting the so-called debt ceiling been established as a political bargaining aspect, hypocritically despite the historical formality of its increase.

Going back to 1980 some 33 years when prince Ronnie was elected, the US govt. has raised the so-called debt ceiling I think, every year but 3. Every president and congress since has been faced with a $multi-trillion debt when doing so.

Besides, what is the penalty for exceeding the so-called, federal debt limit ? If so, what would be the charge and who do we ? Would this be a misdemeanor , maybe 3rd degree or a felony, say 4th degree ? If it's a violation of federal law, does somebody go to jail ?

"Hey Duke ?" "Yes captain." "We've been getting reports from our street sources that the federal govt. just exceeded the debt limit without statutory authority. Take your crew down there and see what you can find out." "On it sir." Want to sit back and enjoy or raise hell ?

Post #: 1

RE: Debt ceiling before the spin - 8/8/2013 10:09:09 PM

Real0ne

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Joined: 10/25/2004
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Probabl,y singing to the choir but when you want to understand the magician always look at what you were not intended to see. Something is always quietly slipping through the cracks while the people are bombarded with a constant barrage against their principles et al.

The master magicians:
The art of magic involves the skillful capture of attention. A magician says "watch closely while I make this rabbit disappear". He must capture your full attention because without it, you will notice the slight-of-hand performed by his assistant, that creates the illusion of his magic. The diversion of federal government revenue into clandestine projects makes use of this same technique.

Every day on TV news programs, you see the political leaders of America engaged in a grand debate over how to make the world in general, and America in particular, a better place to live

Most people assume that congress and the president jointly determine how tax revenue is being spent. However, the money is actually spent by semi-autonomous bureaucratic empires, with names like Department of Defense, Department of Energy, Department of Homeland Security, Department of Housing and Urban Development (the list goes on and on)...

The trick behind the magic:
A short review of some department budget items will prove useful in understanding the mechanics of

everything they do is solely for the dog and pony show I have seen them flip in less than 24 hours telling completely opposite stories.

Its about planting "shit" in peoples heads.

Its actually gotten so rrefined its a science now days. and it works, well mostly on people without internet. heh heh

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 8/8/2013 10:11:39 PM >

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Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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Post #: 2

RE: Debt ceiling before the spin - 8/8/2013 10:37:05 PM

Termyn8or

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FR

This again ? The electric bill on the whitehouse must be coming due.

T^T

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 3

RE: Debt ceiling before the spin - 8/8/2013 11:32:47 PM

PetBoyOwner

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Joined: 5/28/2013
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The debt ceiling is a construct for people who are bad at math. It is portrayed, mostly by conservatives, as some sort of check against the executive branch spending freely. But the executive branch already can't do that. The executive branch might sign the checks, but they don't get to decide even a single penny of how much is spent. Congress sets spending levels, and it is illegal for the executive branch to spend any more or less than that legally mandated level.

The reason you need to be bad at math to think the debt ceiling should be meaningful is simple arithmetic. Congress sets tax policy, and thus sets the income. Congress sets spending policy, and thus sets the expenses. Based on those two statements, the debt level is already set. If Congress failed to raise the debt ceiling, it would be, simplified, legally requiring the executive branch to spend $5, to make $3 in income, but wind up with only $1 in debt.

This is why the question of what would happen if we breach the debt ceiling is the subject of so many wild guesses. We're asking about a hypothetical situation in which the President is faced with mutually contradictory Constitutional mandates. I personally think the soundest legal argument is that the 14th Amendment ("The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned.") makes the debt ceiling unconstitutional - once Congress mandates a spending and taxation policy and creates debt, they cannot then question that debt by setting a ceiling on it. If Congress wants to keep the debt under a certain level, they should avoid incurring it in the first place with different spending and taxation policies.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 4

RE: Debt ceiling before the spin - 8/8/2013 11:44:56 PM

Real0ne

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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

shall not be questioned

however we are free and this is a democracy! gawd the delusion pounded into our heads from childhood forward. A whole nation educated in beer farts and belches! LOL dont ask dont tell where the money goes!

Good observation btw if that is yours.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 8/8/2013 11:46:04 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to PetBoyOwner)

Post #: 5

RE: Debt ceiling before the spin - 8/9/2013 7:21:55 AM

MrRodgers

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Well yea, but we all know that the spinning will be at high speed if it becomes a political football. The trouble of course is that...a large minority will believe it.

To say though that for congress to pass an unbalanced budget/tax regime offers the president a constitutional quandary is not quite accurate. The leg. branch could say stop the spending enough to stop the borrowing before violating the statute limiting debt or you Mr. Pres....are under arrest.

Grounds for impeachment ? What does it all really mean ? Nothing. Nothing but political gamesmanship because if anything, the 14th amend. might trump any impeachment talk.

That's why talk is of thus forcing a govt. shut down that the exec. could threaten in order to achieve that statutory goal...raise the limit or you get none of this or none of that or how about no congressional paychecks. Now they'd listen to that hey ? Why not put congress on unpaid furlough...they're not doing anything anyway.

Now there's an idea.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 6

RE: Debt ceiling before the spin - 8/9/2013 8:16:27 AM

Yachtie

Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

FR

This again ? The electric bill on the whitehouse must be coming due.

T^T

Obama is running out of Titlist golfballs

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Post #: 7

RE: Debt ceiling before the spin - 8/9/2013 8:18:49 AM

mnottertail

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They must be the cheap Chinese knockoffs of Titleist golf balls.

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Post #: 8

RE: Debt ceiling before the spin - 8/9/2013 8:22:56 AM

tj444

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Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
it exists only on paper

and money is only paper.. the debt ceiling hits poor people, those on assistance who are having benefits cut (by as much as $200/m from reports).. but yah.. its just "spin"..
I know, I know.. I shouldnt give a shite..

< Message edited by tj444 -- 8/9/2013 8:23:23 AM >

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(in reply to MrRodgers)

Post #: 9

RE: Debt ceiling before the spin - 8/9/2013 10:14:00 PM

PetBoyOwner

Posts: 16
Joined: 5/28/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

shall not be questioned

however we are free and this is a democracy! gawd the delusion pounded into our heads from childhood forward. A whole nation educated in beer farts and belches! LOL dont ask dont tell where the money goes!

Good observation btw if that is yours.

If you want to know where the money goes, you should be looking at the spending, not the debt.

If I make $20 today, borrow $10, and spend $30 on gas, the money went to gas, not to borrowing $10.

The debt ceiling is supposed to exist for the out-of-power party to do some grandstanding and make some speeches about. It's not supposed to be used to threaten actual default unless an agenda the majority of voters voted against doesn't get enacted anyways.

(in reply to Real0ne)

Post #: 10

RE: Debt ceiling before the spin - 8/9/2013 10:55:33 PM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
and money is only paper.. the debt ceiling hits poor people, those on assistance who are having benefits cut (by as much as $200/m from reports).. but yah.. its just "spin"..

You and I know it's not the "debt ceiling" that hits poor people. It's the lavish spending decisions or revenue decisions. We could buy one less bomber and fund massive relief programs or job programs or whatever. We just don't care about poor people.

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officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 11

RE: Debt ceiling before the spin - 8/10/2013 12:18:19 AM

Termyn8or

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Joined: 11/12/2005
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FR

Are you all that fucking stooopid or what ? I mean no shit, do do have a fucking working frontal fucking lobe ?

OK, maybe you are uninformed so maybe I have to tell you this, and I know the extremely ignoant educaed are going to say I am wrong but here it is :

YOU DO NOT SET YOUR DEBT CIELING, YOUR CREDITORS DO.

T^T

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 12

RE: Debt ceiling before the spin - 8/10/2013 10:15:22 AM

PetBoyOwner

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Joined: 5/28/2013
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The creditors of the United States certainly aren't setting any sort of debt ceiling:

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 13

RE: Debt ceiling before the spin - 8/10/2013 10:46:35 AM

DaddySatyr

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Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL Sen. Barack H. Obama explaining his vote against raising the debt ceiling in 2006

The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. … Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that “the buck stops here.” Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.

Yep, grandstanding, indeed. Unfortunately, our country used to be able to do whatever it wanted to do with it's money/debt but they've abused that privilege to the point where Japan and then China got hip and started buying our debt and now, they own us.

That's right. Since the 1980s or so, we've been "allowed" to continue our "free" lifestyle because of the magnitude of those evil Easterners.

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Post #: 14

RE: Debt ceiling before the spin - 8/10/2013 4:37:36 PM

PetBoyOwner

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Joined: 5/28/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Yep, grandstanding, indeed. Unfortunately, our country used to be able to do whatever it wanted to do with it's money/debt but they've abused that privilege to the point where Japan and then China got hip and started buying our debt and now, they own us.

That's right. Since the 1980s or so, we've been "allowed" to continue our "free" lifestyle because of the magnitude of those evil Easterners.

Sorry, the vast, vast majority if U.S. debt is owned by ... Americans. So, for the most part, the national debt is money we owe to ourselves.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)

Post #: 15

RE: Debt ceiling before the spin - 8/10/2013 11:33:05 PM

MrRodgers

Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

FR

Are you all that fucking stooopid or what ? I mean no shit, do do have a fucking working frontal fucking lobe ?

OK, maybe you are uninformed so maybe I have to tell you this, and I know the extremely ignoant educaed are going to say I am wrong but here it is :

YOU DO NOT SET YOUR DEBT CIELING, YOUR CREDITORS DO.

T^T

Any frontal lobe problem is found on capitol hill. This OP is about 31 USC § 3101 - Public debt limit. Stay on point here. This is the US govt. we are talking about.

Currently $14,294,000,000,000.

And BTW at no time in history has the world ever told the US...'we are not lending you anymore money." In fact, the historically low yet sufficiently attractive interest rates, demonstrates clearly, the eager willingness of lenders around the world to lend the US money.

So no, they don't set our debt ceiling...we do.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 16

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