What is submission or submissiveness? (Full Version)

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JustAMas -> What is submission or submissiveness? (8/9/2013 11:42:15 PM)

So, I realize that being submissive is not necessarily a personality trait (although it could be), but what exactly does make one submissive? Why is it that the person may only be submissive in bed, or with a certain person, or the person could be submissive in general? The person may not come across as submissive (or dominant) in both real life and online, yet the person can still have either submissive or dominant kinks.

What's a kink?

What does it mean, when the person finds submissiveness appealing only in sexual practices, but finds it deplorable in anywhere else?

What does it mean, when the person is only submissive within certain relationships, and does not find the same apply to everything else?

What does it mean, when the person is generally submissive towards everybody, everything, nature, universe, God, towards LIFE itself? (Such persons generally tend not to question anything, and go with the flaw).

Is submissiveness what the person WANTS to be, but not necessarily IS? Is submissiveness an ideal to be pursued?

I'm just as confused as you are... so I would like to hear your input.



SeekingTrinity -> RE: What is submission or submissiveness? (8/10/2013 12:10:15 AM)

~FRing it~

Ah, a question right up my alley!

Submission is definitely not a personality trait for me. Im a totally assertive female. Im the one looked to to take charge in family crises. Im the natural born leader-type. It was only within the past year that I actually embraced the "switch" identity. But I only switch with one person...my guy. He is the only one I can bear seeing me as anything other than the cool as a cucumber assertive self that everyone else sees me as. Only he has seen the lack of control side. In a way, he is the only person I feel safe showing that to.

I find the feeling of vulnerability deplorable outside of my connection with him. He has been the only one that I can say provided enough of a safe harbor for me to be able to let go. I too find it ironic. But I've come to accept it for what it is. It's beyond my being able to explain it. All I know is that it is what it is for me.

Is a submissiveness an ideal to be pursued? I don't think there is honestly one set answer that will fit everyone exactly the same way. It's different for each one of us, almost like it was tailored especially for each one of us individually.

Is submissive what I am? To him it's a part of me. But it's not who I think I am in general. Far from it actually.

What is kink? It's whatever you want it to be. It's whatever I want it to be. What's kink for me may not be for you...and vice versa. When dealing with human beings, its best to just realize that there are some basic needs/desires...but that its ultimately individualized and not a one size fits all situation



JustAMas -> RE: What is submission or submissiveness? (8/10/2013 12:28:17 AM)

I think I know what you're trying to do... and I'm not sure if I'd tell you this, unless you're interested in hearing.

I actually think that it's quite common for women to be submissive in a relationship, yet be non-submissive at work, etc (whether it be out of necessity, or because she wants to).

Perhaps some, if not most people, may have submissive "desires". A man may not be submissive in a relationship, yet he may like the idea of submitting to an authority figure above them, a boss that he respects, a military sergeant, a guru or a teacher, an expert. Of course, this has nothing to do with sexual submission, but what is sexual submission?



I've thought about submission, and here's what I came up with:

1. Submission is the desire to make others happy or be pleased with them. It's the wanting to please or wanting others to be proud of them. It creates Parent-child, Teacher-student, Authority-subject and other hierarchical relations. Submission may be considered infantile, or be based on infantile urges and desires. In essence, it's the desire to please, to appease and to gain the favor of those who they consider to be important or useful to them in some ways.

2. Through submission, the person gains favor and goodwill from others without resorting to force (dominance). Submission, through the desire to please, may smooth over conflicts that may arise in non-submission based relations. Through submission, they may resolve conflicts and successfully mollify those who they think that can harm them.

3. The more the person thinks it's important that people should act favorably toward him, the more he may become submissive.

4. There is wisdom in submission, however submission can also be misused or misdirected, if it's used unwisely, manipulatively or attempt to blindly appease and please without much thought.



So perhaps I will ask another question: What is submission to you?



JeffBC -> RE: What is submission or submissiveness? (8/10/2013 1:18:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustAMas
What's a kink?

Something involving sexuality that other people do :)

What does it mean, when the person finds submissiveness appealing only in sexual practices, but finds it deplorable in anywhere else?
I feel like this is a trick question. It means they resonate with a submissive role sexually but not in other areas. Us humans are complex :)

What does it mean, when the person is only submissive within certain relationships, and does not find the same apply to everything else?
I tend to think of dominant and submissive as relative terms in some sort of global human pack hierarchy. So the answer to me is obvious. One person was dominant over the "sub" and the other person was not.

What does it mean, when the person is generally submissive towards everybody, everything, nature, universe, God, towards LIFE itself?
It means that they are fairly "low" in that pack hierarchy. Warning on that word "low". I don't mean to imply any qualitative judgement there.

(Such persons generally tend not to question anything, and go with the flaw).
*chuckles* My wife you mean? My answer to this is that you don't understand such people very well.

Is submissiveness what the person WANTS to be, but not necessarily IS? Is submissiveness an ideal to be pursued?
If by "submissiveness" you mean at the personality trait level then that seems like a dumb thing to do to me. I like to encourage people to be more true to their actual self.

If we're talking about a dominant personality choosing to submit for whatever reasons within a given context then I see no reason that can't be done. Is it an "ideal"? I suppose for someone it might be but I tend to reserve that for things like "happiness". I'm much more concerned about whether I am happy than whether I am dominating or submitting.



JustAMas -> RE: What is submission or submissiveness? (8/10/2013 1:47:58 AM)

No... I think I get it now. Submission is the desire or the act to please and appease. I just wanted to figure that out... it makes sense to me now.

Some people may want to please during sex and only during sex, some people may want to please only within a certain relationship, and some others may want to please generally everyone, or at least most people.

I just don't understand how people can be so inconsistent. Why are they submissive only in this part or that, but not in others? Of course, there are practicalities of being submissive or not submissive in many different situations. It may just not be their personal style. And of course, people are not 100% submissive or dominant all the time.



JeffBC -> RE: What is submission or submissiveness? (8/10/2013 2:10:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustAMas
I just don't understand how people can be so inconsistent. Why are they submissive only in this part or that, but not in others? Of course, there are practicalities of being submissive or not submissive in many different situations. It may just not be their personal style. And of course, people are not 100% submissive or dominant all the time.

Humans are thinking creatures and we adapt to the given situation we are in. Expecting a human being to behave similarly in different roles and different situations makes no sense. Even Carol who is what I call "default submissive" can be pushed off that default with the right provocation and in certain situations/roles she takes charge automatically (and with some vigor LOL).

From my vantage point what seems incomprehensible is this business of sticking a label like "submissive" on a human being and thinking that describes them. Here's a point to ponder. I say all the time that if Carol got struck by lightning and suddenly had the need to dominate I'd be on my knees in a heart beat. That'd just be me finding myself in a new circumstance and navigating according to my own priority tree but it wouldn't change "me". In that case you'd see me as "inconsistent" because you weren't seeing the whole me. The real me is a guy who loves Carol WAY more than he needs to boss her around. I'd just get my bossy urges in the entire rest of my life. My sense of my own dominance comes from my relationship with the world as a whole not with Carol in particular.



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: What is submission or submissiveness? (8/10/2013 3:46:53 AM)

So, I realize that being submissive is not necessarily a personality trait (although it could be), but what exactly does make one submissive? Why is it that the person may only be submissive in bed, or with a certain person, or the person could be submissive in general? The person may not come across as submissive (or dominant) in both real life and online, yet the person can still have either submissive or dominant kinks.

To understand submissive in personality you have to have some understanding of how personality is formed. We are all a huge compendium of the same personality traits, with each trait being expressed by the individual in varying degrees. In other words, when you speak of the jealousy personality trait, one person will register a one, as in, not expressing that trait very much, another may measure a five, another may measure a ten (wow! highly jealous). The nature/nurture argument about how personality is formed I won't address, although it's an interesting topic.

The same can be said for submissive and dominant traits. Some may register highly submissive, some highly dominant. In my opinion no one is 100% sub or 100% dom.

Being sexually submissive or sexually dominant are different personality traits. Sexuality comes from the id, and whatever is going on in our id is very often not obvious in the rest of our personality. So it's very possible for someone to be sexually sub and yet dominant in the rest of their life (or vice versa).

When it comes to personality, human beings are not nice neat and easily understandable packages.


What's a kink?

A kink is any sexual practice or interest that is considered on the outer edges of 'normal.'

What does it mean, when the person finds submissiveness appealing only in sexual practices, but finds it deplorable in anywhere else?

It may mean that there id (or sub conscious) is not in agreement with their conscious self, something not at all unusual in humans.

What does it mean, when the person is only submissive within certain relationships, and does not find the same apply to everything else?

It means some people float their submissive boat, and others do not. The entire concept of what people find sexy in others you could write a book on, and many have.

What does it mean, when the person is generally submissive towards everybody, everything, nature, universe, God, towards LIFE itself? (Such persons generally tend not to question anything, and go with the flaw).

It means they have a more than average number of sub personality traits.

Is submissiveness what the person WANTS to be, but not necessarily IS? Is submissiveness an ideal to be pursued?

For some the answer to these questions is yes, for others, no. People can not be that easily categorized.

I'm just as confused as you are... so I would like to hear your input.

I'm not confused. I've studied human nature my entire life, which is why I know for a certainty that there will always be more for me to learn on this subject than I have years on earth.



JustAMas -> RE: What is submission or submissiveness? (8/10/2013 4:01:58 AM)

Well actually, people may act in "inconsistent" and contradictory ways due to their need to act in accordance to "how they're supposed to act". For instance, a wife may be sexually (or relationally) submissive to her husband, because that's how she's "supposed to act". Then when she goes to work, she is domineering towards her subordinates, because again, that's how she's "supposed to act". Let's not forget how strong this desire to act in accordance to "how one's supposed to act" is, because you even often see on BDSM how they've hidden their "true selves" (but I'm not exactly sure what one's "true self" is - am I really dominant or submissive? Who knows? Maybe I'm neither?) all this time until they've discovered BDSM.

So basically, my definition of being submissive is "to please and appease to another". Obviously anyone can act in a submissive way, but if a person generally acts in this way most of the time, then he or she may be called a submissive person or have a submissive personality. If a person lean toward being sexually pleasing most of the time, then he or she may be called a "submissive" in BDSM.

I'll tell you another thing... a submissive may not necessarily "enjoy" what he or she goes through, yet the need to "please and appease" may be so great that he or she would sacrifice his/her comfort in order to achieve his/her end goal. Of course, MANY people go through this, and not just those who are generally considered "submissive".

Sometimes, deliberately making the submissive go through something unpleasant in order to "please" may not only be masturbatory (literally and figuratively, both to the sub and the dom), but also unnecessary.

I think that you bring an interesting point with your wife. What you may be talking about may be something like "transcendental" love, kind of like having the idea of having a soul.



JeffBC -> RE: What is submission or submissiveness? (8/10/2013 2:19:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustAMas
Well actually, people may act in "inconsistent" and contradictory ways due to their need to act in accordance to "how they're supposed to act". For instance, a wife may be sexually (or relationally) submissive to her husband, because that's how she's "supposed to act". Then when she goes to work, she is domineering towards her subordinates, because again, that's how she's "supposed to act". Let's not forget how strong this desire to act in accordance to "how one's supposed to act" is

You prove my point. There is no inconsistent or contradictory behavior going on once you factor in the desire to conform to group standards. We are a very social species. No man is an island and all that. Pretty much everyone but BDSM doms know that :)

quote:

, because you even often see on BDSM how they've hidden their "true selves" (but I'm not exactly sure what one's "true self" is - am I really dominant or submissive? Who knows? Maybe I'm neither?) all this time until they've discovered BDSM.

Huh? What? You're describing Carol and I. Neither one of us ever hid our "true selves". We are both very introspective and authentic individuals. Running into BDSM late in our marriage was nothing more than a new set of lenses by which we can look at ourselves... a different perspective. It was additive but it didn't replace anything.

quote:

Obviously anyone can act in a submissive way, but if a person generally acts in this way most of the time, then he or she may be called a submissive person or have a submissive personality.

I came to call that "default submissive" because it avoids tripping over the obvious implied insult if one uses "natural" sub or a word like that. I see Carol as "default submissive". To follow is her go-to answer in pretty much any situation. She can be pushed from that default position given the right pressure or provocation.

quote:

MANY people go through this, and not just those who are generally considered "submissive".

*chuckles* I was just going to say, this sounds more like "being an adult" than "being submissive". Last I checked I do lots of things that I dislike "for reasons of secondary gain".

quote:

I think that you bring an interesting point with your wife. What you may be talking about may be something like "transcendental" love, kind of like having the idea of having a soul.

Probably but that wasn't my point. My point was more like the book flatland. To the 2 dimensional being a 3 dimensional being can appear to be in 2 places at once and it's a miracle. In all three dimensions it's pretty obvious how it works. I think trying to slap a one dimensional label on a human is never going to work out. I deal in people, not labels and not caricatures of people.



DesFIP -> RE: What is submission or submissiveness? (8/10/2013 2:39:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JustAMas
I just don't understand how people can be so inconsistent. Why are they submissive only in this part or that, but not in others?



What did you have for lunch today? Did you have that exact same thing for dinner yesterday? If not, why are you so inconsistent?

Honestly, we're people. Part of the definition of humanity should include inconsistent. If we were consistent, we'd be robots.

Have you ever loved someone yet been pissed off by what they did? There's basic inconsistency there.

Pretend this is math and what one person likes or dislikes is the given. You don't need to go through the basic theorems of algebra to apply the formula. Same here.



metamorfosis -> RE: What is submission or submissiveness? (8/10/2013 7:22:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustAMas
So, I realize that being submissive is not necessarily a personality trait (although it could be), but what exactly does make one submissive? Why is it that the person may only be submissive in bed, or with a certain person, or the person could be submissive in general? The person may not come across as submissive (or dominant) in both real life and online, yet the person can still have either submissive or dominant kinks.

I'm afraid I have to go with the idea that submission is inspired.

What's a kink?

Something you get turned on by that doesn't turn on most other people.

What does it mean, when the person finds submissiveness appealing only in sexual practices, but finds it deplorable in anywhere else?

Either 1) the right person hasn't inspired them or 2) their "strength" in real life is meant as a challenge for someone to "conquer" them.

What does it mean, when the person is only submissive within certain relationships, and does not find the same apply to everything else?

See above.

What does it mean, when the person is generally submissive towards everybody, everything, nature, universe, God, towards LIFE itself? (Such persons generally tend not to question anything, and go with the flaw).

Depends. Either they have embraced a submissive personality by conscious choice (healthy), or they have low self esteem and are incapable of interacting in any other way, because they believe themselves inferior (unhealthy).

Is submissiveness what the person WANTS to be, but not necessarily IS?

Depends on the person.

Is submissiveness an ideal to be pursued?

Depends on the person. Perhaps the answer is yes" for healthy submissives towards a worthy dominant, and "no" for everyone else.

I'm just as confused as you are... so I would like to hear your input.

You got it.




graceadieu -> RE: What is submission or submissiveness? (8/11/2013 12:31:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JustAMas

No... I think I get it now. Submission is the desire or the act to please and appease. I just wanted to figure that out... it makes sense to me now.


That's one reason people submit. But there are other motivations.

Some people submit because being controlled satisfies them and/or turns them on.

Some people submit because they inherantly enjoy doing service tasks. For a non-kinky example, somebody might find a lot of personal satisfaction in volunteering at an animal rescue, which is serving the community, but is not about pleasing people.

And then some people submit for unhealthy reasons, like being too afraid of conflict to stand up to anyone.

These things are not mutually exclusive.



LaLa3565 -> RE: What is submission or submissiveness? (8/15/2013 2:09:05 PM)

I am assertive and Alpha player at work and as head of my household but i enjoy my submissive role in my relationship and my Dom. It is the one place I can feel safe and let go of all the stresses of life and work and just be me and experience pleasure and comfort in the hands of another. I dont believe this is inconsistent, as you said, but sometimes necessary. Submission is give and take. I give my Dom the power, the reins, whatever you choose to call it...he does what he feels is best for me. Whether that be a snuggle, a meal, a spanking, a foot rub and gives me pleasure and orgasms and takes care of me. In turn, I show my appreciation to him by giving him whatever he needs and likes. This things happen symbiotically and chemistry is necessary for a DS relationship to work. I hope this helps



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