RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized...

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WarMachine904 -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/19/2013 11:41:03 AM)
Finally we have arrived at a point of clarification, and I think you presented the two options nicely. I can most readily accept Option B in your scenario...It does nothing for me, I can't understand it, it would cause serious issues if someone tried it on me, but if it floats their boat...great! Although, in all honesty, I don't see much of a distinction between the two. And the statement "it would cause serious issues if someone tried it on me" is equivocal to "personally, I object to it", IMO.

Misslulu1001 -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/19/2013 11:43:14 AM)
Yes we can[:(][:'(]

WarMachine904 -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/19/2013 11:43:53 AM)
LOL!

Lucylastic -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/19/2013 11:45:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WarMachine904 Lucy, Actually I asked LP what made her self identify as a Dominant, so that isn't entirely true. indeed you did.. But before that you said "You are not going to change my view anymore than I am going to change yours." which means you are being wilfully unwilling to learn or grow in your understanding. That is why you will get some of us wimmins unwilling to take you seriously. Maybe your time spent here will help I hope so

WarMachine904 -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/19/2013 11:48:12 AM)
In all actuality this entire thread was educational. I learned alot. I just didn't change my beliefs.

njlauren -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/19/2013 11:49:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WarMachine904 Finally we have arrived at a point of clarification, and I think you presented the two options nicely. I can most readily accept Option B in your scenario...It does nothing for me, I can't understand it, it would cause serious issues if someone tried it on me, but if it floats their boat...great! Although, in all honesty, I don't see much of a distinction between the two. And the statement "it would cause serious issues if someone tried it on me" is equivocal to "personally, I object to it", IMO. What you said was personally you object to the idea of it, and that is the confusion here. You used the words you personally objected to the idea of it, then used the words tolerance, and that threw me off. In Option B, you are saying I don't understand it, it isn't for me, but if someone else likes it, great. If you have said "I personally object to it in my life", no one would have batted an eyelash (I had the image of trying for example to force some people like LP to submit,not a pleasant thought:). My problem with it is you said you object to the idea, then used the term tolerance when talking about others, which to me implied judgement. B implies no judgement, other than it wouldn't work in your life but if someone else wants to do it, rock on, which isn't tolerance, that is accepting that what someone else does is right for them. I don't get anything out of adult babies or some forms of extreme play or humiliation play, but I don't tolerate others doing it, I respect it, even if I don't get anything for it myself. I realize this is semantics, but it is important to understand the difference between objecting to something in our own lives, and objecting to the idea others are doing it. It seems like you are only objecting in your personal life, which is fine, and not understanding it I can understand. My whole point was if you judged others, whether tolerant or not, is where I had the problem, especially if you don't understand it:). It is a semantic difference but it is an important one, and I accept that you are talking in your own life, which is cool.

OsideGirl -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/19/2013 11:50:13 AM)
[image]http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lu22ngDPzQ1qcj1oqo1_500.jpg[/image]

MistressDarkArt -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/19/2013 11:51:32 AM)
quote: OP, this is a side note of curiosity. Would you be willing to go to an event like this http://beyondleather.net/bl/ to get a better understanding? Heck, I'd go for the food menu alone. [8D]

WarMachine904 -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/19/2013 11:57:09 AM)
As Jeff so often points out, somethings get lost in "text". I am certain we would have arrived at the same conclusion in a two minute phone conversation. I actually applaud your willingness to stick with the conversation, so that we both could benefit from the exchange. Kudos!

WarMachine904 -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/19/2013 11:59:26 AM)
LP, I missed your post due to the rapid exchanges, but I would not "object" (sorry, I couldn't help it!) to attending such an event.

MariaB -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/19/2013 12:14:04 PM)
Its amusing how many analogies we have had on this thread. Even I gave one [8\|]. I get the impression that WarMachine is a clever guy. He's clearly articulated points that are difficult to refute including his reasoning behind his objections. I don't think he's going to walk away from this feeling brow beaten and personally I'm pleased about that, not because he objects to female dominants but because he's held this thread together without behaving moronically, even though he's been repeatedly pushed to do so. I live in a world where most of the people around me in my every day life, object to all things BDSM and D/s. Some people think its satanic, others think their children are at risk, whilst others think we are merely sexual deviants. I don't ever try to educate these people, theres little point, I just don't talk about the things I get up to behind closed doors. When we arrive at the doorway to the scene we are advised to be tolerant of anything we may find here. To be intolerant of others kinks and fetishes is broadly frowned upon. Truth is, many people just become clever at hiding their intolerances. There are some things within this lifestyle that I find intolerable but at all costs I would avoid having a conversation with a scene person about those things. Funny but that makes my opinions more restricted within the scene than it does out of the scene.

kalikshama -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/19/2013 12:20:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact OP, this is a side note of curiosity. Would you be willing to go to an event like this http://beyondleather.net/bl/ to get a better understanding? As a former South Floridian, I was curious as to what hotel was being used. It's somewhat odd that they only disclose the host hotel to registered attendees, but it makes sense considering how much trouble the Fetish Flea Fair up here in Mass. has getting people to register through their special link (which gives a discount rate) rather than directly through the hotel.

AAkasha -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/19/2013 12:25:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WarMachine904 In all actuality this entire thread was educational. I learned alot. I just didn't change my beliefs. Right. And the thing is, you did it right. You stated your view and listened to opinions politely. You said women had a right to do it. You said you just didn't believe it was a natural order of things, for you. When femdoms came in and puffed up their chests and used loaded language and decided they were going to "school" you, it made femdoms look bad. Insecure. Some even use honorifics and protocol to do it. Some were condescending to you, in a way, attempting to exert dominance over you, but you did not lash out and try to dominate back. Instead, you just responded politely. That showed class. I don't know what people are trying to "teach" you. I don't know why you need to be "taught" anything. Who cares what you do in your bedroom and personal relationships? Personally I am tired of dominant women who scold men for pushing wank fodder and acting submissive in forums and then they still puff out their chests and talk down to people who they just PERCEIVE as dominating in a forum, or god forbid try to step on their toes, by using "pushy" language and decide to be a schoolyard bully. Don't they see how transparent it is? When a grown woman in text based forum resorts to using condescending terms? Akasha

LadyPact -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/19/2013 12:30:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WarMachine904 LP, I missed your post due to the rapid exchanges, but I would not "object" (sorry, I couldn't help it!) to attending such an event. Not an issue. Threads move fast sometimes. Here's what I'm thinking. See, I don't have a problem with you not wanting a Dominant woman in your personal/intimate relationships. Just like a lot of kinky folks don't think they would do well matched with a non kinky person. (Not that these things don't exist, either. There are D/D couples, s/s couples, etc.) However, an event like that and meeting some of the people there might give you a chance to see that there are more similar traits and share some of the core parts of D/s or M/s dynamics than you might think. That particular event is a good one because there is a good split of genders and sexual orientations and completely fantastic female D/M types that have been on the presenter's list over the years. Part of your original was about wanting to learn things through discussion. Another way of doing that is meeting people who have authority dynamics structured in their lives. Maybe something like that would be an additional tool for you.

WarMachine904 -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/19/2013 12:33:00 PM)
Maria, In all fairness, despite the "limited" view of the world that some think I have, I actually embrace intelligent debate, and I am quite open to new ideas...assuming that someone can present said idea in a non-emotional and intelligent manner. I attribute some of the length of discussion to the difficulty of communicating via text, some to a lack of proper articulation, and still more to the emotional responses that this discussion caused in some posters. But as I said previously, this discussion was not without merit. I actually learned a lot, and was enlightened by the responses of many, including you. Thank you for your participation, your insight, and your balance on this issue.

MariaB -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/19/2013 1:14:20 PM)
Thanks WarMachine and here's to many future discussions!

WarMachine904 -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/19/2013 1:53:07 PM)
Likewise! [:)]

LadyPact -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/19/2013 1:55:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha quote: ORIGINAL: WarMachine904 In all actuality this entire thread was educational. I learned alot. I just didn't change my beliefs. Right. And the thing is, you did it right. You stated your view and listened to opinions politely. You said women had a right to do it. You said you just didn't believe it was a natural order of things, for you. When femdoms came in and puffed up their chests and used loaded language and decided they were going to "school" you, it made femdoms look bad. Insecure. Some even use honorifics and protocol to do it. Some were condescending to you, in a way, attempting to exert dominance over you, but you did not lash out and try to dominate back. Instead, you just responded politely. That showed class. I don't know what people are trying to "teach" you. I don't know why you need to be "taught" anything. Who cares what you do in your bedroom and personal relationships? Personally I am tired of dominant women who scold men for pushing wank fodder and acting submissive in forums and then they still puff out their chests and talk down to people who they just PERCEIVE as dominating in a forum, or god forbid try to step on their toes, by using "pushy" language and decide to be a schoolyard bully. Don't they see how transparent it is? When a grown woman in text based forum resorts to using condescending terms? Akasha Oh, I don't know if that's the part that makes Dommes look bad. The new round of complaints seems to be attempts to drive others to pay sites. They are actually starting consider these duplicate topics and closing them because so many of these are coming to the forums. http://www.collarchat.com/m_4524549/tm.htm http://www.collarchat.com/m_4524913/tm.htm http://www.collarchat.com/m_4526035/tm.htm

RedMagic1 -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/19/2013 5:09:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WarMachine904 Why is it that so many feel that their understanding of BDSM is absolute, and that any variation from that is somehow wrong, and thus must be stamped out, and exorcised? Hi WarMachine, One issue that comes up a lot is that people talk past one another because they don't have the same cultural criteria for what BDSM means. Consider this: the top BDSM scene cities in the world are probably New York, Los Angeles, London, Berlin and Tokyo. There's tremendous variation in almost everything, from one country to the next. Why should we assume we are all talking with the same sexual language? Even within the United States, there are, roughly speaking, two groups of people: those who learned about BDSM through the leather lifestyle, and those who learned about it through the internet (IRC, CastleRealm, CM and FetLife). Those two groups often have very different understandings of what kink means (obvious example: is findom a kink, yes or no). And, even within the leather/real-life-scene/demo-party lifestyle, some people follow RACK while others follow SSC. (david stein would probably be embarrassed by that turn of phrase but bear with me.) So, point being: when someone says, "True BDSM is XYZ," I think they are usually telling the truth, in the sense that the only things they recognize as BDSM are things that are XYZ. If you call something else BDSM, it's helpful to ask yourself, "Why do I call this BDSM and he doesn't? How did that difference originate?" That way we can learn something about ourselves and where we came from, instead of just thinking the other person is a close-minded fool, the end. My two cents.

WarMachine904 -> RE: Let's see if we can keep this one civilized... (8/19/2013 5:57:19 PM)
RedMagic1, I have read some of your other posts, and like JeffBC, you usually have an intelligent and well articulated thought to contribute. This post was no different. I see how the differences that you mentioned could cause misunderstandings in discussion. I think descrite had mentioned how without a shared taxonomy it becomes very difficult to discuss things BDSM. It seems people began arguing about apples and apples. I appreciate your input, as well. Thank you.

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