Constitutional erosion (Full Version)

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Hillwilliam -> Constitutional erosion (8/16/2013 10:31:23 AM)

We've had a couple of debates here and it seems that both sides are using the same tactics.
Both sides are also decrying the same tactics.

Gun legislation. Law abiding people have a constitutional right to have and bear arms.
Those to left of center have spent decades attempting to erode this right by making it more onerous on LAW ABIDING CITIZENS to purchase, maintain, transport and own firearms.

This has done nothing to halt the spread of firearms among our criminal population because criminals don't give a fuck about laws.

The only thing it has done is inconvenienced law abiding citizens exercising a Constitutional right, cost the taxpayers money contributed to a bloated government bureaucracy.

Voters rights Law abiding citizens have a Constitutional right to vote for the candidate of their choice without having to pay for the privilege.
Those to the Right of center are working in an attempt to alter this right with their so-called ID laws thus making it more onerous on LAW ABIDING CITIZENS to exercise their franchise.

This problem hasn't even been definitively shown to exist but it must be fixed and criminals don't care about the law. As many have noted, fake ID's are easy to get.

The only thing it will do is inconvenience law abiding citizens exercising a Constitutional right, cost the taxpayers money contributed to a bloated government bureaucracy. (sound familiar?)

How can a person support one of these erosions of the constitution and not the other?

Let the bleating from both sides begin.




JeffBC -> RE: Constitutional erosion (8/16/2013 10:32:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Let the bleating from both sides begin.

*bleat* I agree *bleat*




Marc2b -> RE: Constitutional erosion (8/16/2013 12:40:46 PM)

quote:

How can a person support one of these erosions of the constitution and not the other?


Easy, we all have our vision of how the world should be. The only "consistency" necessary is our own desires.




cloudboy -> RE: Constitutional erosion (8/16/2013 1:12:26 PM)

Don't you think this is a rather stupid comparison?

The comparison pits -- grass roots people and victims of gun violence -- seeking greater public safety -- v. a cynical political party wanting to scrub voting rolls in their own favor.

Voting is a absolute right under the Constitution, whereas gun ownership is not even arguably allowed outside of a well-regulated militia.




Hillwilliam -> RE: Constitutional erosion (8/16/2013 1:14:16 PM)

*chuckles* it has begun.





DesideriScuri -> RE: Constitutional erosion (8/16/2013 1:19:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
Don't you think this is a rather stupid comparison?
The comparison pits -- grass roots people and victims of gun violence -- seeking greater public safety -- v. a cynical political party wanting to scrub voting rolls in their own favor.
Voting is a absolute right under the Constitution, whereas gun ownership is not even arguably allowed outside of a well-regulated militia.


Ask a 17 year old if it's an "absolute" right.




cloudboy -> RE: Constitutional erosion (8/16/2013 1:31:02 PM)

quote:

Ask a 17 year old if it's an "absolute" right.


That's one great thing about the USA, I think a kid can own a gun, maybe any sort of gun, but he can't vote.




Moonhead -> RE: Constitutional erosion (8/16/2013 1:58:57 PM)

Can his gun vote?




DesideriScuri -> RE: Constitutional erosion (8/16/2013 2:13:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
quote:

Ask a 17 year old if it's an "absolute" right.

That's one great thing about the USA, I think a kid can own a gun, maybe any sort of gun, but he can't vote.


A kid can vote before being legally able to purchase and drink alcoholic beverages, though.

Ask a felon if voting is an "absolute" right.

How is voting a Constitutional right?






popeye1250 -> RE: Constitutional erosion (8/16/2013 2:13:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Don't you think this is a rather stupid comparison?

The comparison pits -- grass roots people and victims of gun violence -- seeking greater public safety -- v. a cynical political party wanting to scrub voting rolls in their own favor.

Voting is a absolute right under the Constitution, whereas gun ownership is not even arguably allowed outside of a well-regulated militia.



Years ago a lawyer told me that "militia" means "the people" and that any three people can form a militia.
He said that the militia is (The People) and not the "National Guard" which is (The State)
As for "well regulated" he said that could be as simple as having the same weapons and caliber of ammunition so as to make them interchangable.
And he said that now as then The People can't depend on the govt for their safety or security.
"Then, they had British soldiers kicking in their doors, now we have criminals kicking in our doors."
This was a while ago but he made a good point as I can remember, that "The Militia" was never intended to be a (part of) the state or the govt. Doing that would cancel it's whole purpose.







Real0ne -> RE: Constitutional erosion (8/16/2013 2:26:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Voting is a absolute right under the Constitution, whereas gun ownership is not even arguably allowed outside of a well-regulated militia.



may want to consider reading a couple history books......





By the middle of the eighteenth century, therefore, English courts could not "imagine" that Parliament intended to disarm the people of England.

In 1775, the American colonists fought for what they regarded as the rights of Englishmen. [161] Fortunately, there is ample contemporary evidence defining exactly what the rights of Englishmen were at that time in respect to the keeping and bearing of arms. In 1782, Granville Sharp, an English supporter of the American cause, wrote that no Englishman "can be truly Loyal" who opposed the principles of English law whereby the people are required to have "arms of defence and peace, for mutual as well as private defence." [162] He argued that the laws of England "always required the people to be armed, and not only to be armed, but to be expert in arms." [163] Edward Christian noted in his edition of Blackstone's Commentaries, published in 1793, that "ever since the modern practice of killing game with a gun had prevailed, everyone is at liberty to keep or carry a gun, if he does not use it for the destruction of game." [164] But the most definitive opinion on the rights of Englishmen "to bear arms, and to instruct themselves in the use of them" came from the Recorder of London, the chief legal adviser to the mayor and council, in 1780. He stated:

The right of his majesty's Protestant subjects, to have arms for their own defence, and to use them for lawful purposes, is most clear and undeniable. It seems, indeed, to be considered, by the ancient laws of this kindom, not only as a right, but as a duty; for all the subjects of the realm, who are able to bear arms, are bound to be ready, at all times, to assist the sheriff, and other civil magistrates, in the execution of the laws and the preservation of the public peace. And that right, which every Protestant most unquestionably possesses, individually, may, and in many cases must, be exercised collectively, is likewise a point which I conceive to be most clearly established by the authority of judicial decisions and ancient acts of parliament, as well as by reason and common sense. [165]



[161] For extensive treatment of this subject see B. Bailyn, supra note 26. Bailyn writes, for example: "For the primary goal of the American Revolution, which transformed American life and introduced a new era in human history, was not the overthrow or even the alteration of the existing social order but the preservation of political liberty threatened by the apparent corruption of the [English] constitution, and the establishment in principle of the existing conditions of liberty." Id. at 19.

[162] G. Sharp, supra note 43, at 18, 27.

[163] Id. at 18.

[164] 2 W. Blackstone, Commentaries 411 (E. Christian ed. 1793-95).

[165] W. Blizard, Desultory Reflections on Police 59-60 (London 1785) (emphasis in original).




BamaD -> RE: Constitutional erosion (8/16/2013 3:15:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Don't you think this is a rather stupid comparison?

The comparison pits -- grass roots people and victims of gun violence -- seeking greater public safety -- v. a cynical political party wanting to scrub voting rolls in their own favor.

Voting is a absolute right under the Constitution, whereas gun ownership is not even arguably allowed outside of a well-regulated militia.

This pits grass roots protection of a right against the states exercising their responsibility to set qualifications for voting.

PS
Hillwilliam doesn't ask stupid questions, I don't always agree with him but he is never stupid




BamaD -> RE: Constitutional erosion (8/16/2013 3:19:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

Ask a 17 year old if it's an "absolute" right.


That's one great thing about the USA, I think a kid can own a gun, maybe any sort of gun, but he can't vote.

He can vote at 18 he can own a long gun at 18 anything that would keep him from voting would keep him from owning a gun.
Not everything that would keep him from owning a gun will keep him from voting.




joether -> RE: Constitutional erosion (8/16/2013 8:22:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
We've had a couple of debates here and it seems that both sides are using the same tactics.
Both sides are also decrying the same tactics.

Gun legislation. Law abiding people have a constitutional right to have and bear arms.
Those to left of center have spent decades attempting to erode this right by making it more onerous on LAW ABIDING CITIZENS to purchase, maintain, transport and own firearms.

This has done nothing to halt the spread of firearms among our criminal population because criminals don't give a fuck about laws.

The only thing it has done is inconvenienced law abiding citizens exercising a Constitutional right, cost the taxpayers money contributed to a bloated government bureaucracy.

Voters rights Law abiding citizens have a Constitutional right to vote for the candidate of their choice without having to pay for the privilege.
Those to the Right of center are working in an attempt to alter this right with their so-called ID laws thus making it more onerous on LAW ABIDING CITIZENS to exercise their franchise.

This problem hasn't even been definitively shown to exist but it must be fixed and criminals don't care about the law. As many have noted, fake ID's are easy to get.

The only thing it will do is inconvenience law abiding citizens exercising a Constitutional right, cost the taxpayers money contributed to a bloated government bureaucracy. (sound familiar?)

How can a person support one of these erosions of the constitution and not the other?

Let the bleating from both sides begin.


Your attempt to....simplify....the complex and complicated subjects of 'Gun Rights' and 'Voting Rights' into a simple paragraph is laughable. Trying to get at job at FOX News? Both subjects are very complicated and complex for many reasons unrelated to each other. The first of many problems they both have in common is the scary number of totally clueless Americans that really do not know what the hell they are talking about. The second is the scary amount of unwise Americans that really do not know what the hell they are talking about. But the third problem is we have Americans whom are both stupid and unwise....and they vote!

The Founding Fathers wrote in many instances that the people of the nation would need to know what sort of rules and laws were created, least a tyranny take hold. Yet, less than 4% of the citizens of the nation have actually read the Affordable Care Act from cover to cover. Yet, its a hotly contested argument on these boards, in Congress, and across the nation. The information people do have of this bill that has been law for three years comes at best, second hand; at worst, fifth hand. Just simply sitting down and reading the document is not enough. Scores of Americans could rattle off the 2nd Amendment. Yet understanding the both what the bill states and the 'spirit' of the intention of the law is simply a mystery to most Americans.

I could explain the 18th century understanding for the 2nd Amendment. How the country would look today, had we followed the concept would be very different. Conservatives would never switch to it, because they are afraid of change; even if that change is best for the country and its citizens to have firearms. Liberals would never switch to it, as they too are afraid that changes could allow moderates to view things differently. Moderates? Those are the totally clueless morons in the nation. An it would take me about 30-45 minutes to explain the whole thing. Afterward the question(s) would arise on whether such a concept could be put into play, how long might it take, and how well could we explain the new concept to Americans. I would use the 8th Amendment to help explain the 2nd Amendment.

The VOTER ID issue is completely different from the 2nd Amendment cluelessness. In this case we have 'fiscal conservatives' voting for Republicans to create laws based entirely on false information to create, maintain, and ultimate lose in court, a bill to limit voting rights among citizens. The facts as known are quite the opposite of what Republicans keep babbling out to the public. This is not made up, but found in your local library if you cared enough to actually research the issue long enough.

But trying to dumb down both subjects, while stating there is a linking mechanism or metaphorical structure that shows they are opposites of the same coin, is just sadly foolish.




RottenJohnny -> RE: Constitutional erosion (8/17/2013 4:52:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

We've had a couple of debates here and it seems that both sides are using the same tactics.
Both sides are also decrying the same tactics.

Gun legislation....

Voters rights...

And this was the only inconsistency you could come up with? Trying to relax, are ya?




pahunkboy -> RE: Constitutional erosion (8/17/2013 7:36:57 AM)

Voter ID is sort of stupid. We pretty much know everyone here by name.




mnottertail -> RE: Constitutional erosion (8/17/2013 7:44:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Don't you think this is a rather stupid comparison?

The comparison pits -- grass roots people and victims of gun violence -- seeking greater public safety -- v. a cynical political party wanting to scrub voting rolls in their own favor.

Voting is a absolute right under the Constitution, whereas gun ownership is not even arguably allowed outside of a well-regulated militia.

This pits grass roots protection of a right against the states exercising their responsibility to set qualifications for voting.

PS
Hillwilliam doesn't ask stupid questions, I don't always agree with him but he is never stupid



The qualifications would have to be very minimalistic, could not be race, creed, color, religion, poll tax, sex, land ownership..........maybe eye color would work.




ThatDaveGuy69 -> RE: Constitutional erosion (8/17/2013 8:09:04 AM)

Gun laws try to reduce a problem we have.
Voter ID laws attempt to address a problem that does not exist.
The only link they share is their roots in the Constitution.

Gun laws would be much more effective if they were the same in every state. They are not. In IL, you need a background check to get a Firearm Owners ID (FOID) card. You are still subject to a 3 day waiting period when buying a gun. These provision only aplly to law abiding citizens. By contrast, a person in AZ can buy a gun with no screening. He can then sell that gun to anyone and there is no accountability. Back in IL, I can buy that gun from AZ on the street for cash and there is no record of it anywhere. Do you see the problem with 50 different sets of state gun laws?

Another rallying cry of the pro-gun group is that we have enough laws already and that we should work to enforce them. I agree about the enforcement part but it's problematic when the president cannot get his appointee to head the ATF approved. It might also be possible that some of those lase we aren't enforcing are just plain bad.

---

When I voted in the last election I was asked for my name and address by the nice lady sitting at the table. She had a print out of all the registered voters in the precinct. She did not ask me for any form of ID. I think I need to show a picture ID when I registered but I don't remember. It seems like it would be easy for someone to to vote in my place unless the person checking the names actually knows me. In order for there to be a lot of this type of fraud you would need several people and you would need that list of registered voters. Each person would need to remember a name and address to cast a vote. The amount of effort needed for this gets very large very fast. I think the much greater threat to voter "security" comes from electronic voting machines with proprietary software. A system that important should be Open Source so it can be scrutinized by programmers outside the company that wrote it.

One of the complaints from the anti-voter ID crowd is that poor people can't afford to buy another form of ID. I think they are missing a much more important point. If a voter ID law were put in place it would have to provide funds to pay for the card for everyone. I'm more worried that it would be so much easier to delete people from an all-electronic system - this seems like a greater threat, especially with proprietary electronic voting machines.




Real0ne -> RE: Constitutional erosion (8/17/2013 8:12:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Don't you think this is a rather stupid comparison?

The comparison pits -- grass roots people and victims of gun violence -- seeking greater public safety -- v. a cynical political party wanting to scrub voting rolls in their own favor.

Voting is a absolute right under the Constitution, whereas gun ownership is not even arguably allowed outside of a well-regulated militia.

This pits grass roots protection of a right against the states exercising their responsibility to set qualifications for voting.

PS
Hillwilliam doesn't ask stupid questions, I don't always agree with him but he is never stupid



The qualifications would have to be very minimalistic, could not be race, creed, color, religion, poll tax, sex, land ownership..........maybe eye color would work.



grass roots is individual states is corporate, not too complicated.




mnottertail -> RE: Constitutional erosion (8/17/2013 8:27:11 AM)

It matters not corporate or incorporate. The difference is without distinction, it is government.




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