-=Gender bending is an innate part of leather - but which counts most, physical or mental?=-

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ResidentSadist -> -=Gender bending is an innate part of leather - but which counts most, physical or mental?=- (8/16/2013 3:47:30 PM)
The real world of BDSM always has and always will be filled with gender benders, which is why I address the topics so often. The leather culture is a pansexual environment, that by my impression is still a bit in the majority gay, despite the huge influx of heterosexual interest (especially online). Hermits online that "don't do munches or events" and only have interpersonal relationship exposure or porn exposure to BDSM aren't part of leather culture that brought you BDSM in the first place. Their prolific postings in forums creates a false atmosphere and false impression of the BDSM world. So to those who are about to venture out into the real world leather community, I say you may be surprised by the fact that gay Masters and boys/bois are common. There are an abundance of LGBTs and even unicorns (bi/fem/poly) aren't rare in the real world despite what you see to the contrary online. There are "Masters", "Sirs" and "slaves" etc of all gender identities. So never make assumptions about someone's leather role, title or gender identity until your are informed. There is every variety and flavor you can think of. The environment online has skewed the ambient bias or impression that BDSM and/or the world of leather is mostly full of these online stereotypes in this order: 1 - horny submissive single men sexing Dominant women (they are still abundant in the RL but not as prevalent as online) 2 - horny dominant men seeking anything of any sex that isn't dead yet (and I'm not always so sure about that last part) 3 - couples seeking a third 4 - all the rest lumped into that bottom 10% of poly, bisexuals and gays. But in the real world, that bottom 10% is the vast majority. And the top item sought here online, a Domme, in the real world leather lifestyle its a 50+% chance she will turn out to be a devout lesbian that is "not for hire". Speaking of lesbians, what inspired this thread is one of favorite authors Laura Antoniou (Marketplace series) who recently posted this awesome cartoon link on her Facebook that puts understanding gender identity through its paces. It is a great cartoon that pits the physical aspects of cocks and vaginas against the mental aspects of identity in a story about a gay relationship between a gay man and a trans man (F to M). Questioning whether the vagina in the relationship takes away his gold star gay status. Great cartoon. Orientation Police Author: Bill Roundy

KnightofMists -> RE: -=Gender bending is an innate part of leather - but which counts most, physical or mental?=- (8/16/2013 4:11:44 PM)
Simply put... Gender has nothing to do with the orientation of ones D/S nature... It what is between the ears and with the heart gut and soul of the person. It could be nature could be nurture or maybe a bit of both. But one thing I do enjoy ; is my time at leather venues. I a. Unfortunate that live no were close to a strong active leather world... Close being anything less than a 5 hour drive and 3-4 hour plane ride. When I do it is a place of welcoming and being at home regardless that I am a stranger in their midst.

ResidentSadist -> RE: -=Gender bending is an innate part of leather - but which counts most, physical or mental?=- (8/16/2013 4:31:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists Simply put... Gender has nothing to do with the orientation of ones D/S nature... It what is between the ears and with the heart gut and soul of the person. It could be nature could be nurture or maybe a bit of both. But one thing I do enjoy ; is my time at leather venues. I a. Unfortunate that live no were close to a strong active leather world... Close being anything less than a 5 hour drive and 3-4 hour plane ride. When I do it is a place of welcoming and being at home regardless that I am a stranger in their midst. I agree. I have always felt the brain is your biggest and best sex organ, not your genitals. So it only makes sense that you gender identity should come from your brain not your pants.

TNDommeK -> RE: -=Gender bending is an innate part of leather - but which counts most, physical or mental?=- (8/16/2013 4:43:46 PM)
Very well said. You DO give good thread. :)

njlauren -> RE: -=Gender bending is an innate part of leather - but which counts most, physical or mental?=- (8/16/2013 9:05:30 PM)
I obviously agree. The other thing to keep in mind is that gender is not binary, aspects of gender play out differently in different people, a stone butch lesbian still id's as a woman, albeit a different one, gender expression can be very different and it is part of identity, and my experience in the leather community is that gender expression is pretty varied, too. There are places where gender identity and sexual identity an influence one another, though to be honest, I don't know why entirely. A lot of the time M to F trans folks, who have spent their lives living as men, who never seemingly had any kind of attraction to men, suddenly start noticing them when they transition. Jennifer Finley Boylan in her book "She's not There" expressed that, when she started noticing men and saying 'whoa, when the hell did they get to be good looking"...I don't know the reason, I don't know whether exploring who they are and letting the 'inner woman' out freed them, since sex with a man would be 'hetero', I don't know if hormones play a role, if they were bi all along and this let them 'free that', but it is pretty common, and for a number of people I have known, I really don't think they ever had any kind of attraction to men until they started transition.....it doesn't mean sexual identity and gender identity are the same thing, just saying that one may influence the other in some cases. As far as the nature of the leather community, I agree that IRL you tend to see a lot more 'out of the norm' people then you might expect looking online, while even back 30 years ago TES has a lot of straight members/couples, you see a lot more of us "out there' folks in the groups and such then in society as a whole, and a lot more then you might see here or on fetlife, I don't know whether that is us 'weirdos' tend not to be online, or if there are a lot more online only types among straight folks,....

AthenaSurrenders -> RE: -=Gender bending is an innate part of leather - but which counts most, physical or mental?=- (8/16/2013 10:44:22 PM)
FR Just wanted to say that comic was awesome, and it's sad that other people have been so determined to define the author's sexuality for him. I have to admit that being a mostly-straight cis female I'm fairly clueless about the nuances of trans* and gay life. So for anyone who's reading this, should I ever inadvertently say something ignorant or make silly assumptions, please call me on it and tell me to shut up and listen! I want to learn and understand.

LadyPact -> RE: -=Gender bending is an innate part of leather - but which counts most, physical or mental?=- (8/16/2013 11:43:14 PM)
First of all, loved the comic. Especially the bit about how they are "on the shelf" because I can literally hear a friend of Mine's voice since it's an expression that he uses often. [:)] In a lot of ways, leather up here (Alaska) is a bit behind. I think it's because we're somewhat disconnected from the rest of the country. In My observation, we need work on the pansexual part as far as the LG goes but we do ok with the BT areas. The gay/L community is still getting used to us het folks. It's not outright prejudice. There have been other issues that have nothing to do with orientation and I don't blame the Bears and Daddies for wanting nothing to do with it. Where we are good is with the trans* community and that's been an amazing learning experience. These last couple of years, I've received education related to the transition of friends that I don't think I would have ever gotten elsewhere. I still have to work hard on the pronoun thing and the wrong name comes out of Me from time to time, but thankfully, My friends are gracious and know that, while I'm trying, I still make the occasional mistake.

hlen5 -> RE: -=Gender bending is an innate part of leather - but which counts most, physical or mental?=- (8/16/2013 11:50:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact ........... trans* community and that's ..... Is trans* just shorthand for transsexual? Thanks in advance!!

SoulAlloy -> RE: -=Gender bending is an innate part of leather - but which counts most, physical or mental?=- (8/17/2013 1:45:35 AM)
I'm never quite sure whether to class myself as part of a leather scene or not, I usually describe it as the local BDSM scene, leather always conjured up images of high protocol, perhaps wrongly. It is one of the things I love about the scene, such a huge variety of viewpoints, lifestyles and dynamics, it's amazing to witness and I always love watching people click at munches. I guess the main difference I notice from what you describe and the UK scene I've encountered is that whilst I've met many lesbians, bisexuals and trans I have met very few gay men. From a couple of the equipment shops I've been to in Manchester I understand there are some events tailored specifically to the gay crowd and that's where most of them go, rather than mix in with the hetero and bi scene.

ResidentSadist -> RE: -=Gender bending is an innate part of leather - but which counts most, physical or mental?=- (8/17/2013 3:03:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact First of all, loved the comic. Especially the bit about how they are "on the shelf" because I can literally hear a friend of Mine's voice since it's an expression that he uses often. [:)] . . . . . . I still have to work hard on the pronoun thing and the wrong name comes out of Me from time to time, but thankfully, My friends are gracious and know that, while I'm trying, I still make the occasional mistake. I liked the gold star status quotes and I too heard that in a friend's voice who speaks the same words. Making mistakes, I have a collection of whoppers. - My gaydar hasn't failed me yet. When out on the tiles without an introduction I haven't called it on the wrong gender like a friend if mine did. That's one reason formal introductions are important protocols sometimes. The formal introductions usually lets you know someone's title, gender identity and relationship role or status if applicable. A really good introduction tells how that person is involved in the leather community and what they do or have done . . . like, "this is Master John Doe, who owns slave jane and runs the House of Doe that sponsors the local BDSM newsletter etc. He is a rope enthusiast interested in starting workshops at the leather convention next year." And there you have it with a few little sentences, who, what, where when and why. Now there is grounds for conversation and you know how to properly address them. When you meet a Master in real life, their is none of this online bullshit about "I don't call anyone that doesn't own me Master" or "they gotta' earn my respect to have me call them Sir". That's just online "tourist talk" from submissives on these forums. It is usually in response to abuse from some at home and cheating online insta-Doms and/or amateur pros that didn't know what they were doing and put a bad taste in some newbee's mouth. I have made some pretty good protocol errors myself. The latest was several years ago when I was talking with an well known popular Domme sissy workshop teacher who just happened to be exceptionally well endowed. She saw her charms weren't unnoticed by me and playfully started flirting, to which I responded in kind. The flirting was very tactful and we grew to respect each others' intellect . . . until . . . somewhere down the line I used the term "girl" referring to her charm. I had been so polite, so refined and navigated the boundaries with respect and intellect while still conveying my passion . . . then I called her a girl. Never have I seen such a face! I don't know is she was more insulted or disappointed. She eventually forgave me but made me come to her side of the fence to proffer my apology. I don't blame her, I was being obtuse while blinded by her charms (boobage). Not hard to imagine that a Domme might not want to be treated like she has been coerced into sharing her inner child with me? It was crass and out of place for the well crafted framework of flirtation we had built. Anyway, we are casual friends to this day, sharing common interests and conversations at events. So whether it is gender or title or group association . . . how people identify is internal and you have to connect with them to learn it. I am glad you liked the cartoon, I though it was an excellent example of personal identity and group association.

ResidentSadist -> RE: -=Gender bending is an innate part of leather - but which counts most, physical or mental?=- (8/17/2013 4:05:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SoulAlloy I'm never quite sure whether to class myself as part of a leather scene or not, I usually describe it as the local BDSM scene, leather always conjured up images of high protocol, perhaps wrongly. It is one of the things I love about the scene, such a huge variety of viewpoints, lifestyles and dynamics, it's amazing to witness and I always love watching people click at munches. I guess the main difference I notice from what you describe and the UK scene I've encountered is that whilst I've met many lesbians, bisexuals and trans I have met very few gay men. From a couple of the equipment shops I've been to in Manchester I understand there are some events tailored specifically to the gay crowd and that's where most of them go, rather than mix in with the hetero and bi scene. Ever heard of Operation Spanner? That got the gay leather community in the UK to go deep in the late 80s and stay that way for a while. But whenever I thought of the UK scene, a lot of academic discipline and military style corporal punishment practiced by gay Brits comes to mind. And from the tales recently told, the gay scene in the UK is huge and thriving. Like the US currently, the UK should still have a larger gay leather scene than a hetro one. Perhaps they don't commingle as much? Have you been to Company Bar, Rembrandt or the Outpost in Manchester? That's about 30 minutes down road from you isn't it? They are gay leather bars and there should be cruise magazines and flyers loaded with gay scene info. Are there 3 straight leather bars in Manchester, I couldn't find them? So Manchester gay leather vs straight leather 3/0 by my count. Here in Central and South Florida we only have 1 straight leather bar in Miami and 1 straight leather bar in Tampa. But tampa has 3 gay leather bars, Orlando has 2 gay leather bars and etc etc. Same goes for leather clubs and societies, many divisions of NLA, SLAP, Rainmakers, etc. However, local munches are a stranger mix and more distant from national affiliations. A munch is like a box of chocolates . . . you never now what you're gonna' get. But the gay leather scene, the large organized scene that has money, that spends money fighting for your rights and changing laws, that spends money sponsoring events or conventions and actually works for social change always seems to out weight the straight leather scene no matter where in the world you go except Russia, where they still "shoot fags and beat up queers". Somehow a mixed group of locals spending money in a restaurant at a munch isn't the core of the leather scene or leather community as I see it . . . it is the entry point to get to know people and become involved in the scene. I hope you take my reply as "take a look at the broader picture" and you will find a different perspective about the gay vs straight population in the leather scene.

evesgrden -> RE: -=Gender bending is an innate part of leather - but which counts most, physical or mental?=- (8/17/2013 4:56:31 AM)
quote: The flirting was very tactful and we grew to respect each others' intellect . . . until . . . somewhere down the line I used the term "girl" referring to her charm. I had been so polite, so refined and navigated the boundaries with respect and intellect while still conveying my passion . . . then I called her a girl. Never have I seen such a face! I don't know is she was more insulted or disappointed. Are there circumstances under which, if she had used the term "boy" with you in a friendly manner, would you have taken it in stride? I have to wonder if she,having worked very hard to get where she is and to earn the respect she has, might have had to actively discourage or correct people (men coming on to her) from referring her to as a girl. Cultural sensitivity if you will. I have to think of my sister-in-law, now retired, but she was one of 3 female med students in her year. A number of us were chatting about who were without our professional titlles/labels/education. She couldn't get passed being a doctor. She always corrected me if I said I had to see the doc, she'd say "it's Doctor". Her postion, because of the inordinate amount of effort it took, weighed heavy in a way. Not so much today. the next generation down of female docs are quite comfy being docs. Have no problem giving orders let alone expecting them to be followed. Don't want to be Chief of Medicine, not because there's some old boys club who won't let them, but because they've seen the job and don't want it. Point being, I have to wonder if it's harder for women in the Leather Community, and perhaps she thought "Holy shit, RS is just like the others, and here I thought I he was cool and understood". Interestingly as I write this, while I could imagine you playfully saying "girl" or she playfully saying "boy" ---even though I obviously don't know either of you-- I could not imagine playfully saying "boy" to a Master Leatherman. Just like one doesn't call a marine "soldier".

ResidentSadist -> RE: -=Gender bending is an innate part of leather - but which counts most, physical or mental?=- (8/17/2013 6:27:14 AM)
^ depends on what kind of "boy"? I am and always will be a bad boy from the motorcity at heart. Yes, I could (and have) laughed it off when called something out of bounds or silly, because my humor knows no bounds. I have no trouble being lighthearted. Speaking of boundaries and protocols, now that I have had breakfast and some coffee this morning, I looked at what I wrote. I have been loosely throwing the term "gay" around like it was the all encompassing umbrella slang of yesteryear. Back when bisexuals weren't "straight" and found refuge in being part of the "gay" world because they were "not hetro". What I should have been saying each time was LGBT, which is the current identifier for that old umbrella. Next time I have to write about self identity and protocols, while simultaneously reaching back in memory to my days in the scene with leathermen, I'll do it after I have had breakfast and coffee so I don't randomly interchange the era's of my terms. [:)]

AthenaSurrenders -> RE: -=Gender bending is an innate part of leather - but which counts most, physical or mental?=- (8/17/2013 6:32:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist Ever heard of Operation Spanner? That got the gay leather community in the UK to go deep in the late 80s and stay that way for a while. But whenever I thought of the UK scene, a lot of academic discipline and military style corporal punishment practiced by gay Brits comes to mind. And from the tales recently told, the gay scene in the UK is huge and thriving. Like the US currently, the UK should still have a larger gay leather scene than a hetro one. Perhaps they don't commingle as much? Hope this isn't too much of a derail, but re Operation Spanner The Chief Constable in Manchester at the time of this was a guy called James Anderton who described the gay community as 'swirling in a cesspit of their own making'. No surprise that the gay leather scene was treated so brutally with that sort of attitude coming down from the chief of police. Thankfully Greater Manchester Police couldn't have a more different attitude towards gay and trans* people now. When I worked there a senior ranking police officer transitioned male to female whilst in role and was fully supported. An officer I vaguely knew won some sort of beauty pageant as part of the gay pride celebrations and this was prominently celebrated on the work intranet (along with pictures of him in his leather undies). I know I am young and naive, but it's hard for me to believe that things were so different just 20 years ago.

ResidentSadist -> RE: -=Gender bending is an innate part of leather - but which counts most, physical or mental?=- (8/17/2013 6:51:13 AM)
^ Things weren't much different here in the states. Remembering the UpStairs Lounge: The U.S.A.s Largest LGBT Massacre Happened 40 Years Ago Today - June 24, 2013 I provide this link only out of respect for those that needlessly died, unlike the disrespectful press at the time that said. "What do we bury them in? Fruit jars." I do not recommend reading this article, unless you are willing to channel your anger. to another thread so we don't hijack this one. It is a side issue about the the battle for social reform in the US and the UK.

SoulAlloy -> RE: -=Gender bending is an innate part of leather - but which counts most, physical or mental?=- (8/17/2013 6:57:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist Ever heard of Operation Spanner? That got the gay leather community in the UK to go deep in the late 80s and stay that way for a while. But whenever I thought of the UK scene, a lot of academic discipline and military style corporal punishment practiced by gay Brits comes to mind. And from the tales recently told, the gay scene in the UK is huge and thriving. Like the US currently, the UK should still have a larger gay leather scene than a hetro one. Perhaps they don't commingle as much? Have you been to Company Bar, Rembrandt or the Outpost in Manchester? That's about 30 minutes down road from you isn't it? They are gay leather bars and there should be cruise magazines and flyers loaded with gay scene info. Are there 3 straight leather bars in Manchester, I couldn't find them? So Manchester gay leather vs straight leather 3/0 by my count. Here in Central and South Florida we only have 1 straight leather bar in Miami and 1 straight leather bar in Tampa. But tampa has 3 gay leather bars, Orlando has 2 gay leather bars and etc etc. Same goes for leather clubs and societies, many divisions of NLA, SLAP, Rainmakers, etc. However, local munches are a stranger mix and more distant from national affiliations. A munch is like a box of chocolates . . . you never now what you're gonna' get. But the gay leather scene, the large organized scene that has money, that spends money fighting for your rights and changing laws, that spends money sponsoring events or conventions and actually works for social change always seems to out weight the straight leather scene no matter where in the world you go except Russia, where they still "shoot fags and beat up queers". Somehow a mixed group of locals spending money in a restaurant at a munch isn't the core of the leather scene or leather community as I see it . . . it is the entry point to get to know people and become involved in the scene. I hope you take my reply as "take a look at the broader picture" and you will find a different perspective about the gay vs straight population in the leather scene. I'm not saying they don't exist as such, just that they don't tend to mix together. Overall I've been to and know of 5 munches and 3 clubs in the Manchester area where the mix is as I described before, if you branch out a little further you'll find another 5 munches and 3 more clubs. (again that I know of) Again, this could be just me confusing what the difference is (if any) between the leather scene and the BDSM scene. I'd personally welcome more integration between the gay and hetero/bi scenes, I think it would help many clubs considerably with more people attending. There's a few organisations in the UK that work against the laws, CAAN, Backlash and indeed The Spanner Trust are a few that spring to mind. Occasionally there are events held to raise funding for them

LadyPact -> RE: -=Gender bending is an innate part of leather - but which counts most, physical or mental?=- (8/17/2013 7:27:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hlen5 quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact ........... trans* community and that's ..... Is trans* just shorthand for transsexual? Thanks in advance!! Transgender usually or transitioning male or female. As far as I know, nobody that I'm acquainted with identifies as transsexual. Thank you for asking.

DesFIP -> RE: -=Gender bending is an innate part of leather - but which counts most, physical or mental?=- (8/17/2013 8:06:30 AM)
The gay leather community may accept gender bending now, but 40 years ago it was a very different story. And many gays still don't accept bi males.

JeffBC -> RE: -=Gender bending is an innate part of leather - but which counts most, physical or mental?=- (8/17/2013 8:21:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist When you meet a Master in real life, their is none of this online bullshit about "I don't call anyone that doesn't own me Master" or "they gotta' earn my respect to have me call them Sir". That's just online "tourist talk" from submissives on these forums. It is usually in response to abuse from some at home and cheating online insta-Doms and/or amateur pros that didn't know what they were doing and put a bad taste in some newbee's mouth. I assume you mean "leather newbee" or "non-leather person" in this statement because I'm sensitive to titles and I don't offer them casually. Anyone who demanded one of me would get it simply out of curiosity and then I'd never speak to them again because I thought they were idiots. This is just as true of doctors as it is of masters. quote: So whether it is gender or title or group association . . . how people identify is internal and you have to connect with them to learn it. This implies that you care about their identity... their "true self" so to speak. As I'm sure you are aware, most people don't really care about that.

hlen5 -> RE: -=Gender bending is an innate part of leather - but which counts most, physical or mental?=- (8/17/2013 8:26:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: hlen5 quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact ........... trans* community and that's ..... Is trans* just shorthand for transsexual? Thanks in advance!! Transgender usually or transitioning male or female. As far as I know, nobody that I'm acquainted with identifies as transsexual. Thank you for asking. D'oh!!! So is the asterisk shorthand for transgender? And thank you!

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