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NSA violations under obama - 8/18/2013 9:26:56 PM   
Phydeaux


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Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline 		From an article today:

"Think about three recent presidential declarations. A few weeks back, the president appeared on CBS to claim that the secret FISA court is “transparent.” He then appeared on NBC to claim that “We don’t have a domestic spying program.” Then, as mentioned above, he held a press conference on Friday to suggest there was no evidence the NSA was “actually abusing” its power.

For these statements to just be inaccurate and not be deliberate, calculated lies it would mean that the president 1) made his declarative statement to CBS even though he didn’t know the FISA court was secret (despite knowing all about the FISA court six years ago); 2) made his declarative statement to NBC but somehow didn’t see any of the news coverage of the Snowden disclosures proving the existence of domestic spying and 3) made his sweeping “actually abusing” statement somehow not knowing that his own administration previously admitted the NSA had abused its power, and worse, made his statement without bothering to look at the NSA audit report that Gellman revealed today.

So sure, I guess it’s possible Obama has merely been “wrong” but has not been lying. But the implications of that would be just as bad — albeit in a different way — as if he were deliberately lying. It would mean that he is making sweeping and wildly inaccurate statements without bothering to find out if they are actually true. Worse, for him merely to be wrong but not deliberately lying, it would mean that he didn’t know the most basic facts about how his own administration runs. It would, in other words, mean he is so totally out of the loop on absolutely everything — even the public news cycle — that he has no idea what’s going on.

I, of course, don’t buy that at all. I don’t buy that a constitutional lawyer and legal scholar didn’t know that the FISA court is secret — aka the opposite of “transparent.” I don’t buy that he simply didn’t see any of the news showing that spying is happening in the United States. And I don’t buy that he didn’t know that there is evidence — both public and inside his own administration — of the NSA “actually abusing” its power"

C'mon lefties. You supposedly cherish individual liberties. Its become increasingly obvious that your "chosen one" is lying to you. So whats more in important - a democrat in office - or your ideals.

When will some of you start criticizing him?
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RE: NSA violations under obama - 8/18/2013 9:39:40 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		When will some of you start criticizing him? I wondered the same thing. Dont hold your breath. If Hillary gets in- it will be the same thing- we will be accused of being sexist. We wont be allowed to wear a mask looking like her at a rodeo and this will be profoundly sexist.

The irony of all this is the chained SS COLA. Everyone here has been robbed by switching to a stingier cost of living formula. But some how if the president is the right color- he can take food off of my table.

Either way we are being robbed. When someone robs you, they are not your friend.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
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RE: NSA violations under obama - 8/18/2013 10:29:18 PM   
Esinn


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Status: offline 		I criticized him when I criticized Bush.

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RE: NSA violations under obama - 8/19/2013 12:43:29 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

C'mon lefties. You supposedly cherish individual liberties. Its become increasingly obvious that your "chosen one" is lying to you. So whats more in important - a democrat in office - or your ideals.

When will some of you start criticizing him?


You need to take your partisan blinders off. Many of us do criticize him. Because we dont do so to the extent you feel is appropriate is another matter and not much to be concerned about.. speaking only for myself.

Also, links and incredibly important. You can post any ole thing, who knows if you vetted what you are posting or not.

http://www.salon.com/2013/08/16/what_if_the_president_lied_to_us/

here is what he said about the FISA court back in 2008... from the link you didnt provide.... you have a bad habit of that.

But I also believe that the compromise bill is far better than the Protect America Act that I voted against last year. The exclusivity provision makes it clear to any president or telecommunications company that no law supersedes the authority of the FISA court. In a dangerous world, government must have the authority to collect the intelligence we need to protect the American people. But in a free society, that authority cannot be unlimited. As I've said many times, an independent monitor must watch the watchers to prevent abuses and to protect the civil liberties of the American people. This compromise law assures that the FISA court has that responsibility.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barack-obama/my-position-on-fisa_b_110789.html

quote:

I, of course, don’t buy that at all. I don’t buy that a constitutional lawyer and legal scholar didn’t know that the FISA court is secret — aka the opposite of “transparent.”


Here is the video of the CBS program...

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50149123n

Is it transparent? Nope... not by our definitions. Exactly how transparent do you want national security to the public?

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 8/19/2013 12:44:23 AM >

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RE: NSA violations under obama - 8/19/2013 10:03:18 AM   
Phydeaux


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quote:


Is it transparent? Nope... not by our definitions. Exactly how transparent do you want national security to the public?


Oh I don't know Taz. I don't want a police state spying on American citizens.

I know - a real radical eh? Which is what we have going on right now. We have a police state collecting every single phone call.
We have every single NSA agent - including contractors - who have access to our conversations. And thousands of cases where NSA people have admitted they have done it.

And you're right - I don't see adequate uproar on this. Do you?

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RE: NSA violations under obama - 8/19/2013 10:23:54 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
And you're right - I don't see adequate uproar on this. Do you?

Well, if we're going with the whole "lefty/righty" thing like children on a kindegarten play ground then I suppose you'd call me a "lefty". No, I do not see adequate uproar about this. "Adequate", in my mind, would be impeachment proceedings.

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RE: NSA violations under obama - 8/20/2013 10:34:41 PM   
ernest10


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Joined: 3/23/2013
Status: offline 		Here is the funny thing about all of this, if the guy in charge is "one of yours", people will look the other way. When the guy in the oval office is someone you disagree with, everything that happens is an impeachable offence. Is the NSA up to something, yes. Don't kid yourself, the same thing was happening under the previous administration as well and probably for decades before that. People can't demand more security and then cry when their liberties are stepped on. You can't have more of one without loosing more of the other.

Such hypocrisy, it's almost amazing.

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RE: NSA violations under obama - 8/20/2013 10:42:41 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		FISA has been a court since 1978.. if we want to talk about adminsitrations... 2005 - 2008 saw the most use of the court with over 2000 requests a year.... 2012 hit over 1700. One Judge resigned in 2005, its said in protest of the unapproved use of the surveillance system.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11350.htm

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: NSA violations under obama - 8/21/2013 1:02:26 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
Well, if we're going with the whole "lefty/righty" thing...



The House, you might recall, didn't do the "lefty/righty" thing when the vote to go after this failed 217/205 (iirc) a couple weeks ago.

Gee. I wonder if maybe the bunch that pretends to care about such things only when a Republican does them might have shifted that balance.

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RE: NSA violations under obama - 8/21/2013 8:36:17 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ernest10

Here is the funny thing about all of this, if the guy in charge is "one of yours", people will look the other way. When the guy in the oval office is someone you disagree with, everything that happens is an impeachable offence. Is the NSA up to something, yes. Don't kid yourself, the same thing was happening under the previous administration as well and probably for decades before that. People can't demand more security and then cry when their liberties are stepped on. You can't have more of one without loosing more of the other.

Such hypocrisy, it's almost amazing.

I don't believe that for a minute. Funny how we were secure and protected enough without the Patriot act before 9/11. That one so-called attack (that it seems 1/2 the world knew was coming) and we are supposed to cave into security/police state...all for your own good now...good folk. Bullshit. Now if the exec. branch wants to spy on the FBI and the CIA...I am all for it.

That's exactly the type of thinking the fascists have been seeking from the public in general. But alas...Americans are political pussies, and will never take to the streets say...like the Germans did.

BTW, with all of the so-called 'impeachments' not pursued, it is folly to expect anything at this late date. W probably had at least 2 maybe 3 impeachable offense of only limited subjectivity.

Hell, I think it was 5 people all govt. secretaries and exec. during Iran/contra had to be pardoned by Bush I, yet Reagan was the 'Teflon' president.

I doubt the US will ever impeach and remove any president for the rest of history.

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RE: NSA violations under obama - 8/21/2013 8:43:12 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
Well, if we're going with the whole "lefty/righty" thing...



The House, you might recall, didn't do the "lefty/righty" thing when the vote to go after this failed 217/205 (iirc) a couple weeks ago.

Gee. I wonder if maybe the bunch that pretends to care about such things only when a Republican does them might have shifted that balance.

I am pissed at both sides of course but it's just that the repubs are so much better at being corrupt, hypocritical liars...the dems...rank amateurs.

Hell, look at the ledger let's say just since Iran Contra and Reagan's criminality. (not even counting Nixon and his corruption )

Who leads the political leagues in exec. and partisan criminality ?

(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: NSA violations under obama - 8/21/2013 10:08:40 AM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
From an article today:

Think about three recent presidential declarations. A few weeks back, the president appeared on CBS to claim that .... 'blah blah blah ...'


He lied. He's a politician. Let that sink in. But at least he didn't say that Egypt or Western Samoa had WMD. We have to take the small good things as we can get them.

quote:

C'mon lefties. You supposedly cherish individual liberties. Its become increasingly obvious that your "chosen one" is lying to you. So whats more in important - a democrat in office - or your ideals.

When will some of you start criticizing him?


When will you awake from your drunken stupor and avail yourself of the fact that millions of 'lefties' have been pounding Obama mercilessly, for many issues before this, just not for the same idiotic reasons as the 'righties'?

And finally, when you finish barfing, you might take note of the fact that numerous 'lefties' want nothing to do with the Democratic party to begin with. That was established long ago, and has now found some resurgence since the "liberal media"'s ongoing attack of same.

What's more important to you? That the nutcases you listen to on AM radio get elected? (people forget; Reagan had devolved to being an AM radio nutjob just prior to his successful run for the presidency), or that they never mention anything about actual personal liberties at all?




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 8/21/2013 10:14:09 AM >

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RE: NSA violations under obama - 8/21/2013 11:41:16 AM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
From an article today:

Think about three recent presidential declarations. A few weeks back, the president appeared on CBS to claim that .... 'blah blah blah ...'


He lied. He's a politician. Let that sink in. But at least he didn't say that Egypt or Western Samoa had WMD. We have to take the small good things as we can get them.

quote:

C'mon lefties. You supposedly cherish individual liberties. Its become increasingly obvious that your "chosen one" is lying to you. So whats more in important - a democrat in office - or your ideals.

When will some of you start criticizing him?


When will you awake from your drunken stupor and avail yourself of the fact that millions of 'lefties' have been pounding Obama mercilessly, for many issues before this, just not for the same idiotic reasons as the 'righties'?

And finally, when you finish barfing, you might take note of the fact that numerous 'lefties' want nothing to do with the Democratic party to begin with. That was established long ago, and has now found some resurgence since the "liberal media"'s ongoing attack of same.

What's more important to you? That the nutcases you listen to on AM radio get elected? (people forget; Reagan had devolved to being an AM radio nutjob just prior to his successful run for the presidency), or that they never mention anything about actual personal liberties at all?






First, this thread isn't about *me* edwyn, and its a tos violation to do so.
Second, once again, whatever bush did is irrelevent to what obama is doing.
Third: Bush was criticized that when a foreign national was eavesdropped on, the american citizen on the other end was also captured.

Obama has secured FISA rulings that allow *every* conversation to be recorded. EVERY SINGLE ONE.

So please. Instead of just blindly defending your chosen one - how about just agreeing that we need to do something about it?

Personally, I think it is ironic that the things that Snowden did while he were a contractor are punishable - now that he is no longer a contractor. And the NSA have admitted that there have been tens of thousands of violations of the law.


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RE: NSA violations under obama - 8/21/2013 12:24:58 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

Obama has secured FISA rulings that allow *every* conversation to be recorded. EVERY SINGLE ONE.


Got a source for that?

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RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: NSA violations under obama - 8/21/2013 12:40:14 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		The National Security Agency began improperly collecting Americans' electronic communications that had no connection to terrorism in 2008, but the government didn't learn of the problem until 2011, senior administration officials said Wednesday.



Director of National Intelligence James Clapper will on Wednesday afternoon release three documents that reveal the extent of the error, the administration officials said.



The NSA revealed the improper collection of emails to the FISA court in 2011, which demanded a halt to the practice.



The officials said the problem was technological and not malicious.

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RE: NSA violations under obama - 8/21/2013 12:51:26 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		I meant that the FISA court allowed "every" conversation to be recorded.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: NSA violations under obama - 8/21/2013 1:45:03 PM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		Im sorry Taz, I just got that as "breaking news" forgot the link
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/08/secret-nsa-court-opinions-declassified-95767.html?hp=f3


altho it was just all over CNN

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RE: NSA violations under obama - 8/21/2013 1:56:24 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

FISA has been a court since 1978.. if we want to talk about adminsitrations... 2005 - 2008 saw the most use of the court with over 2000 requests a year.... 2012 hit over 1700. One Judge resigned in 2005, its said in protest of the unapproved use of the surveillance system.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11350.htm

I got the impression that now they bunch a whole lot of requests together into one warrant and call the one warrant a request, so todays numbers don't really tell the whole story (but what does in govt today???) at least that is my understanding of how they also lie about how bad it really is..

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RE: NSA violations under obama - 8/21/2013 3:29:22 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		no doubt it is bad.... Im not sure this "secret court" is to blame.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 19
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