RE: Car Wash Managers Indicted in Immigration Raid

RE: Car Wash Managers Indicted in Immigration Raid (Full Version)

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tj444 -> RE: Car Wash Managers Indicted in Immigration Raid (8/21/2013 6:03:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny In a case like this, if they don't have the $1 million in assets and 10 employees, have a secondary tier they can qualify under. Document them immediately and give them a temporary visa, put them in the fast lane for getting citizenship, give them a year to complete their qualifications (whatever that may be) and pay fines. At the end of that year, if they've completed those requirements then give them citizenship. Otherwise, their business gets confiscated and sold and they get deported. that sounds all well and good in theory.. but unfortunately there are no such laws allowing that.. in 2011, there was a proposed law (Start-up Visa) but it was shot down (of course [8\|]).. I think it was modified and they tried again, but so far, to no avail.. Your govt has been at this "immigration reform" for at about 10 years and they still have done squat about it.. As far as their business being confiscated.. I would expect that in China or Russia.. if the US govt started doing shite like that, it would put a chill over the investment & business community like you have never seen..

tj444 -> RE: Car Wash Managers Indicted in Immigration Raid (8/21/2013 6:15:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 In other words, the whole issue is quite a mess of conflicting agendas and factions. I don't see any workable solution in the short run. I don't see one either since no changes in law can be passed cuz of the political gridlock.. As far as illegal immigrant business owners.. all they had to do was enact one of the variations of the Start-Up Visa.. but they cant even do that, it seems.. oh well..

DesideriScuri -> RE: Car Wash Managers Indicted in Immigration Raid (8/21/2013 7:02:08 AM)
Do not make the mistake that legal immigration and illegal immigration are one and the same. One is a Federal crime while the other is absolutely desirable.

Zonie63 -> RE: Car Wash Managers Indicted in Immigration Raid (8/21/2013 7:17:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Do not make the mistake that legal immigration and illegal immigration are one and the same. One is a Federal crime while the other is absolutely desirable. I don't say that they're one and the same, but I don't see the issue as being as black-and-white as it's often made out to be. Much of the debate revolves around what the law should be, not what it is currently. What if it wasn't a federal crime? What if the law stated that it's okay for anyone and everyone to just walk over the border and live here without any restrictions or barriers whatsoever? Would that then make it okay, since it would no longer be a crime? Or are you saying that it should remain a federal crime, but if so, why, if immigration is absolutely desirable?

DesideriScuri -> RE: Car Wash Managers Indicted in Immigration Raid (8/21/2013 7:38:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Do not make the mistake that legal immigration and illegal immigration are one and the same. One is a Federal crime while the other is absolutely desirable. I don't say that they're one and the same, but I don't see the issue as being as black-and-white as it's often made out to be. Much of the debate revolves around what the law should be, not what it is currently. What if it wasn't a federal crime? What if the law stated that it's okay for anyone and everyone to just walk over the border and live here without any restrictions or barriers whatsoever? Would that then make it okay, since it would no longer be a crime? Or are you saying that it should remain a federal crime, but if so, why, if immigration is absolutely desirable? If there was no restriction or barriers to immigration, there would be no crime, and there would be no illegal immigration. I am saying it should still be a Federal crime to come here illegally. I'm also saying that coming here legally needs to be easier.

cloudboy -> RE: Car Wash Managers Indicted in Immigration Raid (8/21/2013 8:04:07 AM)
quote: What if it wasn't a federal crime? It's not crime at all. Immigration violations are regulatory violations like speeding and jaywalking.

cloudboy -> RE: Car Wash Managers Indicted in Immigration Raid (8/21/2013 8:05:50 AM)
You quibble to avoid finding a solution. Immigration is people without the US nationality being given permanent status by the USA and a pathway to citizenship. Any way Congress decides to allow this is immigration.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Car Wash Managers Indicted in Immigration Raid (8/21/2013 8:11:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy You quibble to avoid finding a solution. Immigration is people without the US nationality being given permanent status by the USA and a pathway to citizenship. Any way Congress decides to allow this is immigration. It's not the same immigration your Cato Institute link was talking about though, was it? How is it that granting status to people who are already here working and spending, is going to increase the economy? They are already here, in the economy. It's not like we aren't counting their contributions because they are illegal.

mnottertail -> RE: Car Wash Managers Indicted in Immigration Raid (8/21/2013 8:13:57 AM)
illegal immigrants are civil lawbreakers, and employers of illegal immigrants are criminal and civil lawbreakers.

cloudboy -> RE: Car Wash Managers Indicted in Immigration Raid (8/21/2013 8:16:17 AM)
If you want to be dense about it, that's your choice. Giving people freedom and security can really unleash their potential, but you don't really give a shit about that.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Car Wash Managers Indicted in Immigration Raid (8/21/2013 9:47:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy If you want to be dense about it, that's your choice. That choice is freely yours, too. quote: Giving people freedom and security can really unleash their potential, but you don't really give a shit about that. You won't let yourself have any idea what I give a shit about. All those people who have broken our laws to gain entry should not be rewarded for doing so. Those that are currently going through our immigration process legally should not have their efforts minimized by granting amnesty and citizenship to their brethren who broke the law to skirt the process.

RottenJohnny -> RE: Car Wash Managers Indicted in Immigration Raid (8/21/2013 9:47:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 that sounds all well and good in theory.. but unfortunately there are no such laws allowing that.. in 2011, there was a proposed law (Start-up Visa) but it was shot down (of course [8\|]).. I think it was modified and they tried again, but so far, to no avail.. Your govt has been at this "immigration reform" for at about 10 years and they still have done squat about it.. It isn't because we haven't tried to get them to do something about it. I'm happy to support the inclusion of such laws. quote: As far as their business being confiscated.. I would expect that in China or Russia.. if the US govt started doing shite like that, it would put a chill over the investment & business community like you have never seen.. Our government does this shit all the time...illegal immigrants, drug smuggling, mob ties, etc. It has little, if any, effect on business start ups and investment.

tj444 -> RE: Car Wash Managers Indicted in Immigration Raid (8/21/2013 10:26:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 that sounds all well and good in theory.. but unfortunately there are no such laws allowing that.. in 2011, there was a proposed law (Start-up Visa) but it was shot down (of course [8\|]).. I think it was modified and they tried again, but so far, to no avail.. Your govt has been at this "immigration reform" for at about 10 years and they still have done squat about it.. It isn't because we haven't tried to get them to do something about it. I'm happy to support the inclusion of such laws. quote: As far as their business being confiscated.. I would expect that in China or Russia.. if the US govt started doing shite like that, it would put a chill over the investment & business community like you have never seen.. Our government does this shit all the time...illegal immigrants, drug smuggling, mob ties, etc. It has little, if any, effect on business start ups and investment. Imo, you cant compare illegal immigration (especially for business owners) to drug smuggling, mob/gangs, etc.. that is a whole different can of worms cuz illegal immigration (as cloudboy has pointed out) is a minor violation like jaywalking, and those business owners are frequently doing everything else legally, cuz they don't want to break laws in the first place if starting a legal business here was a reasonable feat.. (I would not consider drug smuggling, mob-gang shite, etc to be a "business" or "investment" since its criminal activity).. most Americans don't realize just how hard the govt makes that, how bureaucratic the process is, how incredibly long it takes and how costly it is.. The US economy would benefit if the govt would stop fucking around and get that done, but for whatever reason, the govt & Americans themselves seem to focus almost entirely on the low paid illegals that walk across the desert to pick lettuce (that's the picture when "illegal immigration" is mentioned).. and forget about the illegals that can create badly needed jobs for Americans.. Unfortunately I don't see that changing any time soon..

RottenJohnny -> RE: Car Wash Managers Indicted in Immigration Raid (8/21/2013 4:30:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 Imo, you cant compare illegal immigration (especially for business owners) to drug smuggling, mob/gangs, etc.. that is a whole different can of worms cuz illegal immigration (as cloudboy has pointed out) is a minor violation like jaywalking, Of course you can compare them. Illegal is illegal. Just because the level of "illegal" is different doesn't mean the final result is going to be any different. It only determines who gets to make the judgement call. quote: I would not consider drug smuggling, mob-gang shite, etc to be a "business" or "investment" since its criminal activity Neither would I, nor did I. My point was that having a business seized by the government because of criminal activity doesn't prevent other businesses from starting up or stop investors from investing. quote: ...the govt & Americans themselves seem to focus almost entirely on the low paid illegals that walk across the desert to pick lettuce (that's the picture when "illegal immigration" is mentioned).. and forget about the illegals that can create badly needed jobs for Americans.. That's because they're the most prevalent group of illegals in the US. But just because some other illegal alien has the ability to create jobs doesn't exempt them from the law governing illegals. Would I prefer to make it easier for them to stay? Sure. But they're not going to get it just because they employ a few people.

graceadieu -> RE: Car Wash Managers Indicted in Immigration Raid (8/22/2013 9:06:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri How is it that granting status to people who are already here working and spending, is going to increase the economy? They are already here, in the economy. It's not like we aren't counting their contributions because they are illegal. As much as I'm not usually a big fan of the Cato Institute, I think there is a point to be made here. Illegal immigrants often don't pay taxes other than sales tax. They cannot organize their labor to advocate for better wages, or even complain if they're not paid minimum wage (which IMO is a big part of what's keeping wages low for blue-collar workers and putting people on welfare). They cannot get decently-paid jobs where they would pay more taxes. They can't buy houses or cars to stimulate the economy. They cannot start legitimate (tax-paying) businesses. But, they still use various (taxpayer-funded) government services such as public schools, free clinics, ambulance services and fire protection. I'm not saying that we should have amnesty for all illegal immigrants, or let anyone that wants to come across the border any time. And personally, I think that if somebody came here illegally they probably shouldn't be allowed to become citizens. But I feel like it would be good for the economy if we figured out a way to let the - employed, law-abiding - illegal immigrants who are already here to earn work visas or green cards. I'd like to see them be able to pay taxes, start businesses, and not be working under the table for $6/hour in cash.

popeye1250 -> RE: Car Wash Managers Indicted in Immigration Raid (8/22/2013 1:37:48 PM)
You do that and you get another 15 million illegal aliens lickity split.

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