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RE: Little fact about global warming for you - 8/24/2013 8:41:11 AM   
mnottertail


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Yeah, there is competing info out there and contradictory stuff, I agree that the 5 or so largest do not qualify for that one bit of welfare anymore.

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/03/01/1654501/oil-subsidies-century/
http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/26/news/economy/oil_tax_breaks_obama/index.htm
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Corporate_Welfare/Oil_Tax_Breaks.html


http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/29/us-obama-energy-idUSBRE82S11P20120329


And there is the other end too:
http://www.coons.senate.gov/issues/master-limited-partnerships-parity-act


none of that is being counted in those numbers.


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(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 181
RE: Little fact about global warming for you - 8/24/2013 8:45:00 AM   
DomKen


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Forbes is fibbing.
The treatment of oil, gas and coal extraction being treated as manufacturing is costing about $1.2 billion per year.
The Dual Taxpayer Deduction, hiding royalty payments to foreign goverments, also comes in at more than $1 billion a year.

As a matter of fact none of the anti subsidy articles and links I provided include any of those programs (except the expensing of refinery equipment) because they do not directly subsidize the oil industry.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 182
RE: Little fact about global warming for you - 8/24/2013 12:31:55 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Forbes is fibbing.
The treatment of oil, gas and coal extraction being treated as manufacturing is costing about $1.2 billion per year.
The Dual Taxpayer Deduction, hiding royalty payments to foreign goverments, also comes in at more than $1 billion a year.
As a matter of fact none of the anti subsidy articles and links I provided include any of those programs (except the expensing of refinery equipment) because they do not directly subsidize the oil industry.


Yep, Forbes is fibbing. lol

Those bastards at Forbes must have really put the screws to Oil Change International ("Oil Change International campaigns to expose the true costs of fossil fuels and facilitate the coming transition towards clean energy.") to make up a fake spreadsheet.

Uh huh.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 183
RE: Little fact about global warming for you - 8/24/2013 1:10:38 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
We give special tax breaks to the 5 biggest oil companies of more than $2 billion a year.
http://www.dpc.senate.gov/docs/lb-112-2-63.pdf
It's pretty clear they don't need these. Surely we can all agree we should not give them a tax break for paying foreign nation's royalties.
Multiple studies show that the total subsidy for fossil fuel production in the US is $10 billion a year.
http://www.oecd.org/site/tadffss/USA.pdf
http://www.eli.org/Program_Areas/innovation_governance_energy.cfm
http://priceofoil.org/content/uploads/2012/05/SandersSummaryFinal.pdf
Look over the lists. Should we really be giving the oil companies a tax break to be pumping oil from marginal and inefficient wells? How about the fact that we let them deduct 15% from their pre tax receipts for depletion of their investments? How about the fast depreciation of Alaska pipelines (7 years instead of 15)? How about the one where coal min operators get a tax deduction meant to incentivize US manufacturing?


Forbes article
    quote:

    Basically, Percentage Depletion is the oil and gas industry’s version of a depreciation deduction for its main asset, which is the oil and natural gas in the ground, commonly known as its reserves. Every industry of any kind is allowed a depreciation deduction on its assets under the U.S. Tax Code, but, far from being a “subsidy” for “big oil”, this tax treatment was in fact repealed for all integrated oil companies, i.e., ExxonMobil, Shell, BP, etc., in 1975, and is today available only to independent producers and royalty owners. So repeal of this extremely long-standing, completely common tax treatment would have no effect on “big oil” at all, and would in fact hit small producers and royalty owners harder than anyone else.

    Another great example of the specious mischaracterization of these tax treatments is the Manufacturer’s Tax Deduction, more commonly referred to as Section 199. The Section 199 provision was enacted by congress in 2004 as a means of encouraging manufacturers to relocate overseas jobs to the U.S., and is in no way specific to or limited to the oil and gas industry. In fact, the oil & gas industry’s ability to take advantage of this provision has already been singled out for limitation – in 2008, Congress reduced the industry’s deduction under this provision to 2/3rds of what other manufacturing industries are allowed to deduct.

    The tax code contains a couple of credits related to the oil and gas industry – the Enhanced Oil Recovery (EOR) Tax Credit, and the Marginal Well Tax Credit. Far from being “subsidies” to “big oil”, these tax credits are used almost exclusively by small to mid-size independent producers who tend to become the operators of marginal oil and gas fields as they age and are divested by the larger companies. The EOR credit was implemented in 1990, and the Marginal Well Credit was signed into law by President Bill Clinton in 1994.

    Finally, let’s talk about Intangible Drilling Costs (IDCs), another feature of the federal tax code that will enjoy its’ 100th birthday in 2013. Basically, IDCs are the costs incurred by the oil and gas industry in the drilling of its wells. Since drilling wells is the only means of finding oil and natural gas, IDCs essentially amount to what any other industry would be able to deduct as a part of its cost of goods sold, a concept of accounting and tax law as old as the tax code itself.

    Independent producers and royalty owners are allowed an election to either a) expense these costs in the year they are incurred, or b) amortize them over a 5-year period. Again, most media reports commonly characterize this as a “subsidy” for “big oil”, as does the Obama Administration. The truth is that “big oil” – the ExxonMobils, Chevrons, Shells and BPs of the world – benefit much less from this tax treatment, it having been severely limited to them by congress in 1986, and again in 1992. And the truth also is that IDCs are not a “subsidy” to anyone engaged in the oil and gas business.


The Price of Oil Organization has a spreadsheet listing all the fossil fuel "subsidies" (air quoted because, well, if you have followed this thread, you know why).

I made some changes to the excel sheet (the link above gets you their spreadsheet, from their site) to lump totals into the categories on the excel sheet, extracted the "Big Oil" listing from the entire list (which includes coal and nat. gas). The "Big Oil" list is presented below (numbers in the millions of dollars):

Table 25.2. Summary of fossil-fuel support to petroleum – United States
Support element Jurisdiction 2010p
Producer Support Estimate
Support to unit returns
Total support to unit returns 1553.34
Severance Tax Exemptions for Crude Oil TX 83.64
Development Credit for Certain Producers AK 13.53
Exclusion of Low-Volume Oil & Gas Wells WV 3.18
Income support
Exception from Passive Loss Limitation Federal 11.94
Support for capital formation
Expensing of Exploration and Development Costs Federal 159.14
Excess of Percentage over Cost Depletion Federal 224.32
Temporary Expensing of Equipment for Refining Federal 760
Aid to Small Refiners for EPA Capital Costs Federal 0
Enhanced Oil Recovery Credit Federal 0
Sales Tax Exemption for Oil & Gas Equipment TX 48.54
Qualified Capital Expenditure Credit AK 232.74
Alternative Credit for Exploration AK 16.31
Support for knowledge creation
Total Knowledge Creation 59.68
Amortisation of Geological Expenditure Federal 59.68
Consumer Support Estimate
Total Consumption Support 1611.44
Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Program Federal 570.23
Small Municipality Energy Assistance Program AK 0
Power Cost Equalization AK 37.03
Alaska Heating Assistance Program AK 2.25
Gasoline Tax Exemptions TX 78.9
Fuel Tax Exemptions for Farmers both 923.03
Consumer Support Estimate
Total Fuel Tax Exemption 184.5
Fuel Tax Exemption for Aviation WV 2.3
Fuel Tax Exemption for Dyed Diesel WV 68.6
Fuel Tax Exemption for Propane WV 13.4
Fuel Tax Exemption for County Boards of Education WV 13.6
Fuel Tax Exemption for Certain Public Administrations WV 1.8
Fuel Tax Exemption for Certain Off-Highway Uses WV 84.8
General Services Support Estimate
Total General Services Support 1097.89
Strategic Petroleum Reserve Federal 1077.35
Fossil Energy R&D Federal 17.32
Northeast Home Heating Oil Reserve Federal 3.22
Total 4506.85

What are the Top 4 listings?
1. Strategic Petroleum Reserve: $1.077B
2. Fuel Tax Exemptions for Farmers $0.923B
3. Temporary Expensing of Equipment for Refining $0.760B
4. Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Program $0.570B

No need for a Strategic Petroleum Reserve? No need for Farmers Fuel Tax Exemptions? No need to help those low income people?

$2.5B of the overall $4.5B is in those 3 programs. That's roughly 56% of the "Big Oil" "subsidies." Even if you disagree with #1, do you disagree with #2 and #4 (roughly 33% of the "Big Oil" "subsidies")?







LOL.. thats the thing with lefties. It takes constant effort to counter things they make up off the top of their head.
"there were no planes in range of benghazi".

The *facts* are that the oil industry is a huge net payer of taxes.

"But.. but.. " Good work Des..

Now.. do you want to readdress the question of more than $16 billion in subsidies that renewables got this year?

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 8/24/2013 1:12:13 PM >

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 184
RE: Little fact about global warming for you - 8/24/2013 1:48:06 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Forbes is fibbing.
The treatment of oil, gas and coal extraction being treated as manufacturing is costing about $1.2 billion per year.
The Dual Taxpayer Deduction, hiding royalty payments to foreign goverments, also comes in at more than $1 billion a year.
As a matter of fact none of the anti subsidy articles and links I provided include any of those programs (except the expensing of refinery equipment) because they do not directly subsidize the oil industry.


Yep, Forbes is fibbing. lol

Those bastards at Forbes must have really put the screws to Oil Change International ("Oil Change International campaigns to expose the true costs of fossil fuels and facilitate the coming transition towards clean energy.") to make up a fake spreadsheet.

Uh huh.

I linked directly to Oil change International and it never mentions those subsidies anywhere I can find and the source document for that spreadsheet is not there any longer.

And no matter what the two subsidies I list above are bigger than the stuff you are talking about and quite clearly not needed and would do no harm to anyone except the oil companies profits.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 185
RE: Little fact about global warming for you - 8/24/2013 3:30:48 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Forbes is fibbing.
The treatment of oil, gas and coal extraction being treated as manufacturing is costing about $1.2 billion per year.
The Dual Taxpayer Deduction, hiding royalty payments to foreign goverments, also comes in at more than $1 billion a year.
As a matter of fact none of the anti subsidy articles and links I provided include any of those programs (except the expensing of refinery equipment) because they do not directly subsidize the oil industry.

Yep, Forbes is fibbing. lol
Those bastards at Forbes must have really put the screws to Oil Change International ("Oil Change International campaigns to expose the true costs of fossil fuels and facilitate the coming transition towards clean energy.") to make up a fake spreadsheet.
Uh huh.

I linked directly to Oil change International and it never mentions those subsidies anywhere I can find and the source document for that spreadsheet is not there any longer.


Um, I linked to the file. You won't actually go there, but you'll download the actual spreadsheet.

Here it is again. http://priceofoil.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/OECD.US_.2009.2010-FIN.xlsx

And no matter what the two subsidies I list above are bigger than the stuff you are talking about and quite clearly not needed and would do no harm to anyone except the oil companies profits.

Would you care to show me where the table I presented was wrong? Download the Excel spreadsheet from the priceofoil.org site and tell me where that is wrong.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/energysource/2012/04/25/the-surprising-reason-that-oil-subsidies-persist-even-liberals-love-them/

http://priceofoil.org/fossil-fuel-subsidies/

http://www.oecd.org/site/tadffss/

USA Data

The OECD is probably lying, too, right?

Edited to fix a hyperlink.

< Message edited by DesideriScuri -- 8/24/2013 3:32:20 PM >


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 186
RE: Little fact about global warming for you - 8/24/2013 3:37:37 PM   
DomKen


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From here
http://priceofoil.org/content/uploads/2012/05/SandersSummaryFinal.pdf
quote:

Eliminate manufacturing deduction, 26 USC 199(d)(9) (Sec 14, 19) -­‐ $11.883 billion (President’s FY2013 budget) – This provision, included in a 2004 law, allows oil and gas industry to claim they are ‘manufacturers’ and take huge tax deductions aimed at incentivizing manufacturing in America.

That 11.883 billion is saving over 10 years so it is bigger than all but one item on your list. I've checked the law and it definitely exists so I'm sticking with this being a subsidy we can get rid of.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 187
RE: Little fact about global warming for you - 8/24/2013 4:59:52 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
From here
http://priceofoil.org/content/uploads/2012/05/SandersSummaryFinal.pdf
quote:

Eliminate manufacturing deduction, 26 USC 199(d)(9) (Sec 14, 19) -­‐ $11.883 billion (President’s FY2013 budget) – This provision, included in a 2004 law, allows oil and gas industry to claim they are ‘manufacturers’ and take huge tax deductions aimed at incentivizing manufacturing in America.

That 11.883 billion is saving over 10 years so it is bigger than all but one item on your list. I've checked the law and it definitely exists so I'm sticking with this being a subsidy we can get rid of.


And, I have to point something else out to you...

You quoted: " This provision, included in a 2004 law, allows oil and gas industry..."

Mine was just for petroleum. Nat gas is separate.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 188
RE: Little fact about global warming for you - 8/24/2013 5:53:24 PM   
Phydeaux


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Yeah.. and I don't really think you want to repeal
26 US 199 d(9)

As it INCREASES the tax liability for oil companies. Here, let me quote it for you:

"the amount otherwise
allowable as a deduction under subsection
(a) shall be reduced by 3 percent of
the least of—
(i) the oil related qualified production
activities income of the taxpayer for the
taxable year,
(ii) the qualified production activities income
of the taxpayer for the taxable year,
or
(iii) taxable income (determined without
regard to this section)."

Epic fail.


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Profile   Post #: 189
RE: Little fact about global warming for you - 8/24/2013 6:07:35 PM   
DomKen


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USC 26 199 is for businesses that manufacture inside the US. Repealing 199(d)9 would disallow the oil industry from taking that deduction at all.

Maybe if some people spent more time reading things they post and less time flinging insults they would not look so completely foolish.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 190
RE: Little fact about global warming for you - 8/24/2013 8:26:59 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
USC 26 199 is for businesses that manufacture inside the US. Repealing 199(d)9 would disallow the oil industry from taking that deduction at all.
Maybe if some people spent more time reading things they post and less time flinging insults they would not look so completely foolish.


Repealing Section 199 would also impact every other business in the US. Interestingly enough, "Big Oil" gets a smaller deduction than other businesses (9% compared to 6% for "Big Oil").

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 191
RE: Little fact about global warming for you - 8/24/2013 8:42:03 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
USC 26 199 is for businesses that manufacture inside the US. Repealing 199(d)9 would disallow the oil industry from taking that deduction at all.
Maybe if some people spent more time reading things they post and less time flinging insults they would not look so completely foolish.


Repealing Section 199 would also impact every other business in the US. Interestingly enough, "Big Oil" gets a smaller deduction than other businesses (9% compared to 6% for "Big Oil").

Nobody said anything about repealing the whole thing just d(9) which is specifically for the oil and gas producers.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 192
RE: Little fact about global warming for you - 8/24/2013 11:48:53 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
USC 26 199 is for businesses that manufacture inside the US. Repealing 199(d)9 would disallow the oil industry from taking that deduction at all.
Maybe if some people spent more time reading things they post and less time flinging insults they would not look so completely foolish.


Repealing Section 199 would also impact every other business in the US. Interestingly enough, "Big Oil" gets a smaller deduction than other businesses (9% compared to 6% for "Big Oil").

Nobody said anything about repealing the whole thing just d(9) which is specifically for the oil and gas producers.



And again - section d(9) which I quoted INCREASES the liability for oil companies (or rather, decreased the deduction they were allowed to take).

You said this is a subsidy for big oil. It is not. Section d(9) decreases the ability of oil companies to enjoy a provision that every other manufacturer in the United States can take advantage of.

So it is the OPPOSITE of a subsidy - it is an INCREASE in tax liability.

Since you don't seem to understand the legislation, let me sum it up for you. Congress passed a law designed to encourage manufacturers to speed up purchases of goods and services. The section in question *diminishes* the ability of the oil and gas industry to enjoy it.

In crafting the legislation, Congress skirted dangerously close to unconstitutional, actually, because in accompanying legislation they allowed independent manufacturers to take full advantage. So, essentially, they targeted this tax penalty at the big 5 (at the time).

One could argue that this is a bill of attainder....

It is curious why you find such a big difference between oil companies and other manufacturers.

Steel mills (used to ) take iron ore and make steel - of all grades and sizes. Is that a mfg?
Furniture mills would take lumber and make furniture out of it. Is that mfg?
Jewelers take raw stones and make gemstones from them.

Exactly why do you think those that prospect for oil, transport it, and manufacture asphault, kerosene, gasoline, sulfuric acid and other products is different?

< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 8/25/2013 12:02:09 AM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 193
RE: Little fact about global warming for you - 8/24/2013 11:56:34 PM   
Phydeaux


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So, we've made real progress here.

We've agreed that, contrary to myth Big Oil (and, by extension other fossil fuels) are huge net payers of taxes.
We've established that the subsidies for renewable energy are 8 times the subsidies for fossil fuels. If you do it on the scale of $/MWhr the subsidy is much, much higher:

(2 billion over 60% as compared with 16 billion for (call it generously) 10%) = 3 vs 160 - or 50 times as much subsidies per Mwhr.

And this doesn't include the state and local level subsidies or enforced buy back agreements.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 194
RE: Little fact about global warming for you - 8/25/2013 1:49:11 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
USC 26 199 is for businesses that manufacture inside the US. Repealing 199(d)9 would disallow the oil industry from taking that deduction at all.
Maybe if some people spent more time reading things they post and less time flinging insults they would not look so completely foolish.


Repealing Section 199 would also impact every other business in the US. Interestingly enough, "Big Oil" gets a smaller deduction than other businesses (9% compared to 6% for "Big Oil").

Nobody said anything about repealing the whole thing just d(9) which is specifically for the oil and gas producers.



And again - section d(9) which I quoted INCREASES the liability for oil companies (or rather, decreased the deduction they were allowed to take).

You said this is a subsidy for big oil. It is not. Section d(9) decreases the ability of oil companies to enjoy a provision that every other manufacturer in the United States can take advantage of.


An oil well is not a factory, USC 26 199 is for actual manufacturers. Without sub (d)9 the oil and gas industry could not take the deduction at all. Try and read what I write not what ever crazy shit you wish I'd wrote.

And no, no one but you believes the fossil fuel industry is not the recipient of an enormous quantity of government subsidies. DS listed a long list of them. He just tried to make hay on some non subsidies on the list that would affect people and not the fossil fuel producers.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 195
RE: Little fact about global warming for you - 8/25/2013 4:50:35 AM   
DesideriScuri


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Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
USC 26 199 is for businesses that manufacture inside the US. Repealing 199(d)9 would disallow the oil industry from taking that deduction at all.
Maybe if some people spent more time reading things they post and less time flinging insults they would not look so completely foolish/

Repealing Section 199 would also impact every other business in the US. Interestingly enough, "Big Oil" gets a smaller deduction than other businesses (9% compared to 6% for "Big Oil").

Nobody said anything about repealing the whole thing just d(9) which is specifically for the oil and gas producers.


Effectively, you are allowing government to change how they treat business; specifically, you are allowing government to discriminate. Is that how government is supposed to act?

quote:

QUOTE: DomKen
And no, no one but you believes the fossil fuel industry is not the recipient of an enormous quantity of government subsidies. DS listed a long list of them. He just tried to make hay on some non subsidies on the list that would affect people and not the fossil fuel producers.


Phydeaux has yet to deny that the fossil fuel industry receives large dollars in tax relief. Tax relief and subsidies being two separate things, mind you. I "made hay" on a list that was gained from an organization against subsidies (tax relief) for the Fossil Fuel Industry. You have yet to show how any of those numbers I presented were incorrect. That is, you have yet to show how any of the numbers from an organization you had previously linked to were incorrect.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 196
RE: Little fact about global warming for you - 8/25/2013 6:14:21 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
USC 26 199 is for businesses that manufacture inside the US. Repealing 199(d)9 would disallow the oil industry from taking that deduction at all.
Maybe if some people spent more time reading things they post and less time flinging insults they would not look so completely foolish/

Repealing Section 199 would also impact every other business in the US. Interestingly enough, "Big Oil" gets a smaller deduction than other businesses (9% compared to 6% for "Big Oil").

Nobody said anything about repealing the whole thing just d(9) which is specifically for the oil and gas producers.


Effectively, you are allowing government to change how they treat business; specifically, you are allowing government to discriminate. Is that how government is supposed to act?

The government should not give special tax breaks meant for one type of entity, manufacturers, and give it to a select few in another, note how it is only fossil fuel extractors that get to pretend to be manufacturers and not any other mine etc.. They got themselves written into a bill meant to encourage operating factories in the US (look over the law in question and you'll find that the deduction amount is based on wages paid).

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 197
RE: Little fact about global warming for you - 8/25/2013 7:28:21 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
USC 26 199 is for businesses that manufacture inside the US. Repealing 199(d)9 would disallow the oil industry from taking that deduction at all.
Maybe if some people spent more time reading things they post and less time flinging insults they would not look so completely foolish/

Repealing Section 199 would also impact every other business in the US. Interestingly enough, "Big Oil" gets a smaller deduction than other businesses (9% compared to 6% for "Big Oil").

Nobody said anything about repealing the whole thing just d(9) which is specifically for the oil and gas producers.

Effectively, you are allowing government to change how they treat business; specifically, you are allowing government to discriminate. Is that how government is supposed to act?

The government should not give special tax breaks meant for one type of entity, manufacturers, and give it to a select few in another, note how it is only fossil fuel extractors that get to pretend to be manufacturers and not any other mine etc.. They got themselves written into a bill meant to encourage operating factories in the US (look over the law in question and you'll find that the deduction amount is based on wages paid).


You know, if you read what is written in the bill, and, specifically d(9), you'd see that the that part reduces (by 1/3) the deduction (from 9% to 6%) Big Oil gets. Perhaps you should look at the law in question a bit closer.

And, this means, that Phydeaux was correct in Post#193:
    quote:

    And again - section d(9) which I quoted INCREASES the liability for oil companies (or rather, decreased the deduction they were allowed to take).


And, since you didn't actually understand the legislation, it is not based on wages, but limited by wages.

USC 26 Section 199
    quote:

    (a) Allowance of deduction
      (1) In general
        There shall be allowed as a deduction an amount equal to 9 percent of the lesser of—
          (A) the qualified production activities income of the taxpayer for the taxable year, or
          (B) taxable income (determined without regard to this section) for the taxable year.
      (2) Phasein
        In the case of any taxable year beginning after 2004 and before 2010, paragraph (1) shall be applied by substituting for the percentage contained therein the transition percentage determined under the following table:
        For taxable years The transition beginning in: percentage is: 2005 or 2006 3 2007, 2008, or 2009 6.

    (b) Deduction limited to wages paid
      (1) In general
        The amount of the deduction allowable under subsection (a) for any taxable year shall not exceed 50 percent of the W–2 wages of the taxpayer for the taxable year.
      (2) W–2 wages
        For purposes of this section—
          (A) In general
            The term “W–2 wages” means, with respect to any person for any taxable year of such person, the sum of the amounts described in paragraphs (3) and (8) of section 6051 (a) paid by such person with respect to employment of employees by such person during the calendar year ending during such taxable year.
          (B) Limitation to wages attributable to domestic production
            Such term shall not include any amount which is not properly allocable to domestic production gross receipts for purposes of subsection (c)(1).
          (C) Return requirement
            Such term shall not include any amount which is not properly included in a return filed with the Social Security Administration on or before the 60th day after the due date (including extensions) for such return.
          (D) Special rule for qualified film
            In the case of a qualified film, such term shall include compensation for services performed in the United States by actors, production personnel, directors, and producers.


See? 199(b)(1) clearly states that deductions allowable under 199(a) are limited to half the wages paid. (a) defines the activities that are qualified to base the deduction on, and (b) caps that deduction to 50% of the wages paid for Domestic Production.

(d) limits the amount for "Big Oil"to 6% of their qualified activities (defined in (a)).



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 198
RE: Little fact about global warming for you - 8/25/2013 7:37:12 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
So like I said the deduction is based on wages paid, the more wages paid the higher the deduction.

Sub d is some rules for certain entities and a bunch of special add ons for non manufacturers, farms and fossil fuel producers. Getting rid of (d)9 and a few words elsewhere in the section would remove the fossil fuel extractors from a law passed to encourage factories.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 199
RE: Little fact about global warming for you - 8/25/2013 8:02:39 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
So like I said the deduction is based on wages paid, the more wages paid the higher the deduction.
Sub d is some rules for certain entities and a bunch of special add ons for non manufacturers, farms and fossil fuel producers. Getting rid of (d)9 and a few words elsewhere in the section would remove the fossil fuel extractors from a law passed to encourage factories.


The legislation is for domestic production, not factories or manufacturing.

The deduction is based on qualified activities and limited by wages. It's not based on wages. If it was based on wages, the 6%/9% would be applied to the wages. It isn't. It's applied to the qualified activities. If you have $1M in wages, and have $5M in qualified activities, your deduction would be $450K, or 45% of your wages. If you had $6M in qualified activities, your deduction would be $500k, not $540k (9% of $6M) because of the wages paid cap.

If you have $1M in wages and $5M in qualified activities, you will have a $450K deduction. If you have $2M in wages, and $5M in qualified activities, you'll have a $450K deduction.

Thus, it's based on qualified activities and only limited by the wages paid.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 200
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