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A conversation on Syrian intervention - 8/27/2013 6:59:01 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		Seeing what has become of the chemical weapons in Syria thread, and since the US Government is busy giving the war plans by hourly update, I thought I would share this nice little piece from The New Yorker elsewhere.


Two Minds on Syria

I think the telegraphing and press conferences are stupid. Maybe it's some glorious feint, and our real response as the world's policeman will be some brilliant surprise move. I'm sure we'll get breaking news coverage wall-to-wall either way, unless Hannah Montana does something else slutty.



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RE: A conversation on Syrian intervention - 8/27/2013 7:06:43 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Seeing what has become of the chemical weapons in Syria thread, and since the US Government is busy giving the war plans by hourly update, I thought I would share this nice little piece from The New Yorker elsewhere.
Two Minds on Syria
I think the telegraphing and press conferences are stupid. Maybe it's some glorious feint, and our real response as the world's policeman will be some brilliant surprise move. I'm sure we'll get breaking news coverage wall-to-wall either way, unless Hannah Montana does something else slutty.


So, you're saying we won't be getting wall-to-wall breaking coverage of Syria?

Like I said in the Chem Weapons Syria thread, this is a fucked up situation, even moreso for any politician in the US. There is no win-win opportunity. I'm not even sure if there is a win-lose opportunity.


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RE: A conversation on Syrian intervention - 8/27/2013 7:19:58 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		I get Al Jazeera, so maybe this will provide an opportunity to check them out.

Did you check the piece at the link, DS? I think this is a very nasty situation. I wish we weren't forced to address, but we don't have much choice about about now.

If we are going to do it, then it should be done right. Given our 21st Century record in that region, I don't have much hope for that.



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RE: A conversation on Syrian intervention - 8/27/2013 7:29:20 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
I get Al Jazeera, so maybe this will provide an opportunity to check them out.
Did you check the piece at the link, DS? I think this is a very nasty situation. I wish we weren't forced to address, but we don't have much choice about about now.
If we are going to do it, then it should be done right. Given our 21st Century record in that region, I don't have much hope for that.


Yes, I did check out that link. One person was gung ho but was reacting pretty much on emotional decision-making. The other was torn between the same emotional decision and a completely rational thought process that ran counter to the emotional decision.

No matter which side the President (and every other US politician) supports, he (they) will be railroaded into either supporting a brutal dictator that uses chem weapons, or supporting terrorists.

If President Obama decides to not act, he will be seen as a paper tiger. He'll be compared to the tin horns Achmadinejad and Kim Jong Il, just out rattling his sabre for shits and giggles.

Before we act, though, we absolutely need to make sure we know who used the chem weapons, and what the ramifications are likely to be years down the road for our action(s). This one-step reaction gauging has to stop. We need to find the reactions to the reaction, and the next level of reactions. And the next, and the next.


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RE: A conversation on Syrian intervention - 8/27/2013 8:29:41 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		I read it more as the author debating with himself, with literary device of two characters, DS. I think we are making a statement for the sake of making a statement.

Imagine a parent who yells for the kids to be quiet and go to sleep, and instead of actually dealing with it when the games continue, just keeps yelling. When it does reach the point where the parent gets up, the consequences of ignoring the warning need to be significant, or the kids will just giggle, and do it all over again another night.

If Assad and Putin giggle, if they wind up with a propganda victory to gloat about, the position and influence of our country in the region heads even further into the drain.

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RE: A conversation on Syrian intervention - 8/27/2013 8:44:15 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
I read it more as the author debating with himself, with literary device of two characters, DS. I think we are making a statement for the sake of making a statement.


That is the stupidest reason to make a statement. Action for the sake of taking an action. It's like saying that doing anything is better than doing nothing.

quote:

If Assad and Putin giggle, if they wind up with a propganda victory to gloat about, the position and influence of our country in the region heads even further into the drain.


I think they have already gotten to that point. That is, if Assad's side was the one that used the chemical weapons...




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RE: A conversation on Syrian intervention - 8/27/2013 8:58:57 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

That is, if Assad's side was the one that used the chemical weapons...




I don't think that can be seriously in question. This wasn't nasty pranksters mixing X, Y, and Z on the cleaning products aisle of the grocery store.

The better question is, why was it done? It's as if Assad is trying to force our hand with such a play.

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RE: A conversation on Syrian intervention - 8/28/2013 1:27:53 AM   
DsBound


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Status: offline 		No intervention is needed by United States... horrific as it may be, all I see are false flags. Sadly, it looks like the wheels are in motion.
http://reason.com/blog/2013/08/27/8-reasons-not-to-go-to-war-in-syria

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RE: A conversation on Syrian intervention - 8/28/2013 3:30:28 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I get Al Jazeera, so maybe this will provide an opportunity to check them out.

Did you check the piece at the link, DS? I think this is a very nasty situation. I wish we weren't forced to address, but we don't have much choice about about now.

If we are going to do it, then it should be done right. Given our 21st Century record in that region, I don't have much hope for that.




Which was my whole reason for being against the second Iraq war.... I made much of the point Bush and Blair had screwed up and would leave a vacuum which would be filled by civil war.

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RE: A conversation on Syrian intervention - 8/28/2013 6:02:34 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
That is, if Assad's side was the one that used the chemical weapons...

I don't think that can be seriously in question. This wasn't nasty pranksters mixing X, Y, and Z on the cleaning products aisle of the grocery store.
The better question is, why was it done? It's as if Assad is trying to force our hand with such a play.


Pranksters? Totally agree that isn't the case.

Terrorist groups aligned with the rebels? Totally could be the case. It's even possible that one of the groups fighting alongside the rebels used the weapons without the knowledge of the rest of the rebel groups. It could have been done with the intention of bringing in outside forces. "Framing" Assad for it would, most likely, bring a relatively swift win for the rebels.

The UN is investigating. I don't put an awful lot of stock in the UN for anything. But, it's the best thing we can go on at this time.


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RE: A conversation on Syrian intervention - 8/28/2013 7:54:29 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
That is, if Assad's side was the one that used the chemical weapons...

I don't think that can be seriously in question. This wasn't nasty pranksters mixing X, Y, and Z on the cleaning products aisle of the grocery store.
The better question is, why was it done? It's as if Assad is trying to force our hand with such a play.


Though it's a WND link, there is some evidence showing that it may not have been Assad.


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RE: A conversation on Syrian intervention - 8/28/2013 8:01:27 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		It really looks like scant evidence to me, for all that. Hard to tell who is who, and who is boasting about what.

It is a miasmatic bunch of daffodils at least.

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RE: A conversation on Syrian intervention - 8/28/2013 8:06:36 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
It really looks like scant evidence to me, for all that. Hard to tell who is who, and who is boasting about what.
It is a miasmatic bunch of daffodils at least.


Wait. You're saying that you don't know if it was the rebels or the Assad regime?

That's exactly what I'm saying.


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RE: A conversation on Syrian intervention - 8/28/2013 8:10:43 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Yeah, there is misinformation and the fog of war on all sides.

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RE: A conversation on Syrian intervention - 8/28/2013 8:12:15 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
It really looks like scant evidence to me, for all that. Hard to tell who is who, and who is boasting about what.
It is a miasmatic bunch of daffodils at least.


This link better?
    quote:

    Testimony from victims strongly suggests it was the rebels, not the Syrian government, that used Sarin nerve gas during a recent incident in the revolution-wracked nation, a senior U.N. diplomat said Monday.

    Carla del Ponte, a member of the U.N. Independent International Commission of Inquiry on Syria, told Swiss TV there were “strong, concrete suspicions but not yet incontrovertible proof,” that rebels seeking to oust Syrian strongman Bashar al-Assad had used the nerve agent.
[emphasis mine]

Even the UN investigators don't know who used the chem weapons. How can we dole out justice properly until we know?


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RE: A conversation on Syrian intervention - 8/28/2013 8:20:44 AM   
NotTellingUAgain


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Status: offline 		It is a DISTRACTION from our domestic problems. Sure, send missiles (costing how many MILLIONS each) into Syria
Then you will surely have the response that AMERICAN MISSILES killed INNOCENT CIVILIANS
Wait and unfortunately see

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RE: A conversation on Syrian intervention - 8/28/2013 8:39:20 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NotTellingUAgain
It is a DISTRACTION from our domestic problems. Sure, send missiles (costing how many MILLIONS each) into Syria
Then you will surely have the response that AMERICAN MISSILES killed INNOCENT CIVILIANS
Wait and unfortunately see


Sadly, I think it's a foregone conclusion that we're going to insert ourselves into this mess. But, which side do we support? I don't know if that has yet been determined. We are likely going in. We will likely kill innocents (pretty much guaranteed in any military involvement) regardless which side we decide to support.



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RE: A conversation on Syrian intervention - 8/28/2013 8:57:32 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


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Status: offline 		"- You think Putin is going to risk a military confrontation with the U.S. and Europe?
- I think Russia isn’t going to let Assad go down. Neither is Iran or Hezbollah. So they’ll escalate. This could be the thing that triggers an Israel-Iran war, and how do we stay out of that? My God, it feels like August, 1914."

That part is clearly wrong. Not only because I do think that Russia is ready to let him down: mostly because of the absolute certainty shown by the "main voice" that they WON'T. There is no conditionals here, only asserts, ended by that frightened "it feels like". What kind of argument is that?

There are other parts where the "main voice" is weak. The main point being the escalation due to intervention, in different directions. In other aspects it is right. It was interesting to read, anyway.



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RE: A conversation on Syrian intervention - 8/28/2013 10:10:23 AM   
Rule


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RE: A conversation on Syrian intervention - 8/28/2013 11:11:08 AM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		President Pantload can't do anything until the "U.N." issues....oh,...22 - 24 "resolutions."

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