RE: Inappropriate touching

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JeffBC -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/4/2013 9:07:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: needlesandpins context is everything. This. Without context such discussions are beyond stupid. In fact, the whole "no touching" thing is one of my favorite examples of the massive gap between online discussions about BDSM and real life instances of it.

sunshinemiss -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/4/2013 9:15:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam I see 2 times when it's appropriate to touch someone without permission. 1. Crowded noisy room and you need to pass thru. A gentle touch on the shoulder accompanied by "Excuse me please". 2. Something fast and painful/dangerous is headed their way and they don't know about it. Both have happened and I've never had a problem with the first and after the person realized what could have happened, I have been thanked for the second. I find it hard to believe that you get all demure and inquire to a damsel, "fair lady, might I have the honor of touching your hand? might I boldly lay a kiss upon it?"

Hillwilliam -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/4/2013 9:17:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam I see 2 times when it's appropriate to touch someone without permission. 1. Crowded noisy room and you need to pass thru. A gentle touch on the shoulder accompanied by "Excuse me please". 2. Something fast and painful/dangerous is headed their way and they don't know about it. Both have happened and I've never had a problem with the first and after the person realized what could have happened, I have been thanked for the second. I find it hard to believe that you get all demure and inquire to a damsel, "fair lady, might I have the honor of touching your hand? might I boldly lay a kiss upon it?" Who says I'm the one initially to ask for contact?[8D]

DesFIP -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/4/2013 9:20:45 AM)
OP, instead of demanding that everyone else adopts your cultural background and also learns to read your mind, be pro-active. If someone gets within your personal space, step away and ask them not to touch you. That way, you won't get upset and they can go see friends who do enjoy friendly hugs and kisses.

tommonymous -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/4/2013 9:21:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 Just do the phony "air kiss". Then you have offended no one. Phoniness offends me. [;)] Ultimately, different behavioral norms create friction and discomfort when they collide. I'll deal with it, as I hope any adult would, and try to understand that I am not always the most important person in the room and that my preferences aren't de facto rules for social behavior. I think it goes without saying (but, being the internet I should probably say it anyway) that an innocent hug or touch or peck with anyone from a stranger to a close friend is wholly different than being the creep who enjoys grabbing, pinching, kissing, et al, other people and gets his or her jollies by exploiting the natural desire in most of us to not upset the social structure.

Baroana -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/4/2013 9:49:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP OP, instead of demanding that everyone else adopts your cultural background and also learns to read your mind, be pro-active. If someone gets within your personal space, step away and ask them not to touch you. That way, you won't get upset and they can go see friends who do enjoy friendly hugs and kisses. I diverge from this point of view. If you are touching someone who is legitimately your FRIEND, and you have a reasonable basis to believe your friend is cool with it, then that is one thing. In such a case it is usually very ok to assume that you are not being offensive. But if it is a perfect stranger or someone you barely know, then kissing them is battery.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/4/2013 10:08:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Baroana ...If you are touching someone who is legitimately your FRIEND, and you have a reasonable basis to believe your friend is cool with it, then that is one thing. In such a case it is usually very ok to assume that you are not being offensive. But if it is a perfect stranger or someone you barely know, then kissing them is battery. I really hate my personal space being invaded by anyone. And I really hate it when the French and other Europeans think it's ok to greet someone by a peck on the cheek. That really turns my stomach! How dare they!! I can tolerate shaking of hands but that's about it from anyone that I don't know really really well. It wouldn't be the first time I've made a barrier by putting my palms facing outwards to warn those sort of people away from me. I really can't stand it at all.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/4/2013 10:29:38 AM)
Battery? Really? You feel it should be or is criminal? If someone's intent was to express love of some kind towards you with a show of affection, you consider it battery? I see some issues with this but not on the side of battery. Have you ever tried introspection as to why you have such an extreme reaction to it? quote: ORIGINAL: Baroana quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP OP, instead of demanding that everyone else adopts your cultural background and also learns to read your mind, be pro-active. If someone gets within your personal space, step away and ask them not to touch you. That way, you won't get upset and they can go see friends who do enjoy friendly hugs and kisses. I diverge from this point of view. If you are touching someone who is legitimately your FRIEND, and you have a reasonable basis to believe your friend is cool with it, then that is one thing. In such a case it is usually very ok to assume that you are not being offensive. But if it is a perfect stranger or someone you barely know, then kissing them is battery.

Baroana -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/4/2013 10:47:11 AM)
Battery ain't always criminal. Look up the tort definition. Is it a lawsuit with damages? Probably not, but that doesn't change the definition of what it is. As for extreme reaction, try having some creepy guy randomly kiss you on the lips. Then tell me you don't feel sexually harassed.

JeffBC -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/4/2013 10:58:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Have you ever tried introspection as to why you have such an extreme reaction to it? This. I read discussions here and I get some image of BDSM folk walking around in a crowded room with 6' hoola hoops attached to their hips marking out theri personal space so nobody even so much as gets near someone else lest the cries of rape echo forth. When I talk to real life friends about the same situations it sounds more like normal human responses to normal human situations. In other words, they seem to be able to distinguish between "casual touch for perfectly normal social reasons" and criminal activity. I like real world kinksters better than I like internet ones... even though they are frequently one and the same.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/4/2013 10:58:41 AM)
The issue is not with the feeling but the reaction. You want it stopped for everyone, not just yourself. At least that is what I perceive from what you have written. The extreme is in the action, not in the feeling. I have been kissed by a gross person, a couple of times in the past. I went off on them, and when I can see it coming I use a hand or step back to keep it from happening. Why are those methods not good enough for you? Sorry I do not need to look up the tort definition for a word that is being used in every day usage. Every day usage is that the general population link battery with a crime. If that is not what you meant, improve your communication. Try the word offensive in place of battery and you will still get your meaning across and not have the term mistaken that you want it to be criminal or legally actionable. quote: ORIGINAL: Baroana Battery ain't always criminal. Look up the tort definition. Is it a lawsuit with damages? Probably not, but that doesn't change the definition of what it is. As for extreme reaction, try having some creepy guy randomly kiss you on the lips. Then tell me you don't feel sexually harassed.

Gauge -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/4/2013 11:15:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Baroana Battery ain't always criminal. Look up the tort definition. Is it a lawsuit with damages? Probably not, but that doesn't change the definition of what it is. As for extreme reaction, try having some creepy guy randomly kiss you on the lips. Then tell me you don't feel sexually harassed. Your point is being mired down to the degree where it is unclear what is acceptable to you or not. The "creepy guy" randomly kissing you on the lips is totally different than a friendly greeting gesture. You are using extreme words to explain your reaction... like "Battery" and "Sexual Harassment" which then leads to my question of why your reaction is that strong to include a legal description of a heinous act? For the life of me I cannot understand how one can make the leap from friendly gesture to criminal activity. While I respect your opinion I also believe that you are overreacting to being touched in any way, friend or stranger alike. I believe that you should take a good hard look at why this causes you such distress. Also, there is a delineation between acceptable social interaction in daily life and what can and cannot be done in a workplace environment. For instance, a guy in a bar walks up to you and kisses you on the cheek, while it is creepy it is not sexual harassment... it is just a guy doing something either sweet or really stupid. If that happens where you work a whole different set of rules apply. No one can read your mind and to believe that everyone will conform to your own rules because they should is unreasonable. If you have boundaries and someone mistakenly crosses that line with you, it does not mean that you have been sexually assaulted... it means that they crossed an unseen line. Not everyone will act within your parameters of how you feel they should act. I believe everyone should drive like I drive. I have my own code of acceptable conduct when I am driving. Everyone should respect that and drive like I do because I feel it is right. Is that a reasonable perception? Of course it isn't because I do not make the laws, I believe that even if they should obey my own code of conduct, I am not naive enough to believe that everyone would. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/4/2013 11:32:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gauge Your point is being mired down to the degree where it is unclear what is acceptable to you or not. The "creepy guy" randomly kissing you on the lips is totally different than a friendly greeting gesture. You are using extreme words to explain your reaction... like "Battery" and "Sexual Harassment" which then leads to my question of why your reaction is that strong to include a legal description of a heinous act? For the life of me I cannot understand how one can make the leap from friendly gesture to criminal activity. <snip> Touching someone in any way when it isn't invited is actually a crime. What you deem as a friendly gesture - I call it assault and battery. Why?? Because it wasn't warranted and not asked for. It really is as simple as that. So to me, unless I know you really well, everyone falls into the "creepy guy" category.

LadyPact -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/4/2013 11:56:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Baroana As for extreme reaction, try having some creepy guy randomly kiss you on the lips. Then tell me you don't feel sexually harassed. I think if you would have started the thread with this specific situation for discussion, this would have been a much different thread. "Kissing" as a general category mixes different elements. People that I know well and have sincere affection for, I'll give them a quick kiss when saying hello or good-bye. I'm also the type to hug friends when meeting or parting. I'd agree that somebody whom I barely know walking up to Me and kissing Me on the lips probably isn't appropriate. It might be if two people had just come home from a date and one person is leaving after walking a woman to her doorstep. If it was the latter and you weren't comfortable with the guy kissing you, I'd have to agree that you should have said something about your discomfort. If you can fill in the details of the circumstances, I'd probably have more to go on.

Gauge -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/4/2013 12:08:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 Touching someone in any way when it isn't invited is actually a crime. What you deem as a friendly gesture - I call it assault and battery. Why?? Because it wasn't warranted and not asked for. It really is as simple as that. So to me, unless I know you really well, everyone falls into the "creepy guy" category. Perhaps you should read what I wrote again. I made a fairly clear definition of "creepy guy" versus friendly gesture. So, if I tap you on your shoulder and it was uninvited, you would charge me with a crime? I find that a little extreme. I also find that way of thinking on the extreme side. I respect people's personal space and I am not that "creepy guy" that is grabbing and touching people I do not know. I do not feel violated if someone touches me in a friendly manner, a pat on the back or something of that nature will not raise my ire and make me feel invaded. I have played in more than a few bar bands, and I get people all the time that throw their arm around me and I don't know them, but it is a friendly gesture and totally harmless. I do not view that as criminal, perhaps maybe a little inconsiderate, but certainly not something to invoke criminal proceedings over. It may be different for a female, I have no idea and cannot, obviously, speak from that perspective. I get what is being said, but what I do not understand is why it is such an extreme reaction. I have better things to worry about.

Gauge -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/4/2013 12:11:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact I think if you would have started the thread with this specific situation for discussion, this would have been a much different thread. "Kissing" as a general category mixes different elements. People that I know well and have sincere affection for, I'll give them a quick kiss when saying hello or good-bye. I'm also the type to hug friends when meeting or parting. I'd agree that somebody whom I barely know walking up to Me and kissing Me on the lips probably isn't appropriate. It might be if two people had just come home from a date and one person is leaving after walking a woman to her doorstep. If it was the latter and you weren't comfortable with the guy kissing you, I'd have to agree that you should have said something about your discomfort. If you can fill in the details of the circumstances, I'd probably have more to go on. This. No one can automatically know what is and is not acceptable to you unless you communicate.

petitespot -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/4/2013 12:21:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Baroana Had a discussion today about when it's ok to kiss someone without permission and not be a rapey creep. My opinion is, almost never. I've always stuck my tongue in peoples ear when I've met them for the first time. Should I not have done that?

Hillwilliam -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/4/2013 12:27:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: petitespot quote: ORIGINAL: Baroana Had a discussion today about when it's ok to kiss someone without permission and not be a rapey creep. My opinion is, almost never. I've always stuck my tongue in peoples ear when I've met them for the first time. Should I not have done that? Only if you want them to grab your hair in their fist and turn their face around for a hard kiss.[8D]

Gauge -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/4/2013 12:28:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: petitespot I've always stuck my tongue in peoples ear when I've met them for the first time. Should I not have done that? I'm not going to lie... dats hot.

sexyred1 -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/4/2013 12:37:16 PM)
I once had a first date where the guy acted all gentlemanly and when we left, I turned my cheek for a chaste kiss Instead, he grabbed my hair, pulled my head back and BIT me on the exposed part of my cleavage, really hard. Inappropriate? You tell me.

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