RE: .....President Obama Urges Congress to Vote Conscience on Syria, Even If Public Opposed (Full Version)

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servantforuse -> RE: .....President Obama Urges Congress to Vote Conscience on Syria, Even If Public Opposed (9/6/2013 7:49:26 PM)

Final results? If it is an overwhelming vote against military action, a vote will not be taken. Obama owns this one. He drew the red line in the sand.



Lucylastic -> RE: .....President Obama Urges Congress to Vote Conscience on Syria, Even If Public Opposed (9/6/2013 7:55:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

They might not vote at all because of the final results. It will be an embarrassment for the chosen one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

final results of what?


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Final results? If it is an overwhelming vote against military action, a vote will not be taken. Obama owns this one. He drew the red line in the sand.

que?
ok so ......they might vote an overwhelming no (definitely possible even likely) against military action.
then what will they might not vote on?



DesideriScuri -> RE: .....President Obama Urges Congress to Vote Conscience on Syria, Even If Public Opposed (9/6/2013 8:36:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse
Obama is an idiot. I wonder if he would get the noble peace prize right now ?

I dont believe there is noble peace prize


I don't know, Lucy. I think the Nobel is also quite noble... [8D]



Lucylastic -> RE: .....President Obama Urges Congress to Vote Conscience on Syria, Even If Public Opposed (9/6/2013 8:43:31 PM)

its been made a mockery of since the sixties, depending on your "opinion" by too many people, at least the peace prize has



DesideriScuri -> RE: .....President Obama Urges Congress to Vote Conscience on Syria, Even If Public Opposed (9/6/2013 8:45:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
its been made a mockery of since the sixties, depending on your "opinion" by too many people, at least the peace prize has


Maybe if it had only gone to people who had actually stood for peace instead of people that had only talked about peace, it would be more noble, I suppose.



tazzygirl -> RE: .....President Obama Urges Congress to Vote Conscience on Syria, Even If Public Opposed (9/6/2013 9:08:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Final results? If it is an overwhelming vote against military action, a vote will not be taken. Obama owns this one. He drew the red line in the sand.


wait... are you suggesting the House will turn down an opportunity to deny something Obama wants? really? How many votes on the ACA has been taken?



FatDomDaddy -> RE: .....President Obama Urges Congress to Vote Conscience on Syria, Even If Public Opposed (9/6/2013 11:21:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Odd how the right fail to mention a certain Republican Senator who wants Obama to go further than is already being spoken about.



If there is a clear and present danger to the security and well being of the United States of America, The President need not ask Congress to combat it, period.

Now, myself and most of the American Public cannot seem the what "clear and present danger" the civil war in Syria is presenting to the United States and personally, I have to wonder what the President is doing. It seemed, he was ready to use his authority and Commander in Chief of US Military Forces and Chief of Foreign Policy even in the face of considerable opposition. He then backed off?

Why? I am not sure.

Now, if this "certain Republican Senator" and The President of the United States, feel that the current Government of the Syria is such a dire threat the our Republic and to the World, why are they not both rallying the lawmakers, and why isn't the President, calling for a for a formal declaration of War to defeat that threat? If Congress uses the power designated to them to do so, and the United States formally declares war, then you will find, most of the American public, myself included, rally around our Nation.

But that is not what is happening!

President Obama seems to want the same limited authority he already has except he wants Congress to tell him he is doing the right thing. If this was so damn pressing and important to America and the World, it the situation was so dire, what the hell is he waiting for???

More so, he seems to be couching his actions as a "punishment" ! Not as an act of war, not as a military action to combat a clear and present danger to the Nation but a punishment to one side in a civil war!



tweakabelle -> RE: .....President Obama Urges Congress to Vote Conscience on Syria, Even If Public Opposed (9/7/2013 12:47:07 AM)

quote:

Lucylastic
[...]and before any body accuses me of backing him, I dont, I am looking for a reason beyond his "incompetence"...sadly incompetent people are looking to do anything but think.


What is not being said is that the current shambles US ME policy finds itself in is hardly Obama's fault. It's not any individual's fault.

US policy towards the ME has long been virtually bi-partisan. To some extent it was hijacked by the neo con cowboys who were so influential in the last Administration. But the cracks and contradictions in the policy were apparent long before Iraq and 9/11. Whether Syria gets bombed or not is not going to revive the corpse of US policy towards the region either.

However every challenge is an opportunity in disguise. The total failure of policy staring the US in the face is an opportunity to change tack, and to design a foreign policy towards the ME that will be more successful in future. If the public and politicians in the US accept the challenge, then some good will result from the current shambles. Before that process can begin, the reasons for the failure of current policy need to be identified.

Blaming Obama for a situation he largely inherited isn't the best place to start that analysis. The US lost control of its policy decades ago, when the supposed beneficiaries of US policy managed to gain control of the policy and policy making process and unsurprisingly tailored that policy to put their own interests first. US interests became secondary as the tail wagged the dog.

Unless the US regains control over its own policy towards the region, and re-asserts itself through a policy that puts US interests first, it is highly improbable that this current disaster will be the last calamity for the US in the region.



chatterbox24 -> RE: .....President Obama Urges Congress to Vote Conscience on Syria, Even If Public Opposed (9/7/2013 6:08:11 AM)

Cut off a mans hands he can not write
Cut off a mans feet he can not walk
Cut out his tongue he can not speak.
CUt out his heart and brain he will not live.
Immobilize the leaders of these kind of actions.
If it can be done with few casualities to civilians, I say bye bye boys.



DaddySatyr -> RE: .....President Obama Urges Congress to Vote Conscience on Syria, Even If Public Opposed (9/7/2013 6:09:05 AM)

Hmmmm Edmund Burke ...

quote:



In May 1778, Burke supported a motion in Parliament to revise the restrictions on Irish trade. However his constituents in Bristol, a great trading city, urged Burke to oppose free trade with Ireland. Burke resisted these demands and said: "If, from this conduct, I shall forfeit their suffrages at an ensuing election, it will stand on record an example to future representatives of the Commons of England, that one man at least had dared to resist the desires of his constituents when his judgment assured him they were wrong".[44]



He was voted out of parliament in 1780, based largely on his refusal to represent the interests of the people who elected him.

So, I guess we need to ask if our country is supposed to be a dictatorship - whether there's one or 537 of them - or if it is supposed to be a democratic republic where our representatives are sent to Washington DC to espouse our viewpoints or, if they think elections elevate them to a "ruling class".

I know how the founders saw it and I stand with them.



Regards,



Thomas Paine



tweakabelle -> RE: .....President Obama Urges Congress to Vote Conscience on Syria, Even If Public Opposed (9/7/2013 6:24:08 AM)

Satyr please tell me that you are not suggesting that all the US's problems in the ME will be solved simply by replacing the person in the White House.

Obama's policies are barely distinguishable from those of his predecessor, whose policies weren't that different from his predecessor etc . A little more emphasis here, a little less there but for the most part, policy remains the same irrespective of which party is in the White House or controls Congress.

The problem is not the person implementing the policies, the problem is that the policy is not designed to further US interests but is designed to further the interests of other nations. Until this is fixed, you can look forward to further disasters for the US in the ME. And quite honestly for as long as the US is silly enough to put its own interests behind that of others, it will deserve what it gets.



mnottertail -> RE: .....President Obama Urges Congress to Vote Conscience on Syria, Even If Public Opposed (9/7/2013 6:43:52 AM)

quote:


I know how the founders saw it and I stand with them.


So, you are for the ruling class then.



DaddySatyr -> RE: .....President Obama Urges Congress to Vote Conscience on Syria, Even If Public Opposed (9/7/2013 7:24:44 AM)



quote:

ORIGINAL President Jefferson

"If we can but prevent the government from wasting the labours of the people, under the pretence of taking care of them, they must become happy."

"When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty."

"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government."

"A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circlue of our felicities."

"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny."

"To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."

"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country."



quote:

ORIGINAL James Madison

"All men having power ought to be distrusted to a certain degree."

"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."

"It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood."

"Do not separate text from historical background. If you do, you will have perverted and subverted the Constitution, which can only end in a distorted, bastardized form of illegitimate government."



quote:

ORIGINAL John Adams

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

(I had to throw that one in for those arguing that the founders never intended to base our society on religious belief)

"Power always thinks it has a great soul and vast views beyond the comprehension of the weak."

"There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty."



Yes. Believers in tyranny and dictatorship ... There are none so blind as those with an agenda.



mnottertail -> RE: .....President Obama Urges Congress to Vote Conscience on Syria, Even If Public Opposed (9/7/2013 7:32:43 AM)

I dont know how you think that those people believe in tyranny and dictatorship. You don't know much about the actual signatories or deals and compromises that made up the constitution though, and John Adams? That even further bolsters that our society was not founded on religious belief

Adams was raised a Congregationalist, but ultimately rejected many fundamental doctrines of conventional Christianity, such as the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus, becoming a Unitarian. In his youth, Adams' father urged him to become a minister, but Adams refused, considering the practice of law to be a more noble calling. Although he once referred to himself as a "church going animal," Adams' view of religion overall was rather ambivalent: He recognized the abuses, large and small, that religious belief lends itself to, but he also believed that religion could be a force for good in individual lives and in society at large. His extensive reading (especially in the classics), led him to believe that this view applied not only to Christianity, but to all religions.

Adams was aware of (and wary of) the risks, such as persecution of minorities and the temptation to wage holy wars, that an established religion poses. Nonetheless, he believed that religion, by uniting and morally guiding the people, had a role in public life.

So, while HE thought so as an opiate to the feeble minded, that doesn't make one a majority.




DesideriScuri -> RE: .....President Obama Urges Congress to Vote Conscience on Syria, Even If Public Opposed (9/7/2013 8:29:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Satyr please tell me that you are not suggesting that all the US's problems in the ME will be solved simply by replacing the person in the White House.
Obama's policies are barely distinguishable from those of his predecessor, whose policies weren't that different from his predecessor etc . A little more emphasis here, a little less there but for the most part, policy remains the same irrespective of which party is in the White House or controls Congress.
The problem is not the person implementing the policies, the problem is that the policy is not designed to further US interests but is designed to further the interests of other nations. Until this is fixed, you can look forward to further disasters for the US in the ME. And quite honestly for as long as the US is silly enough to put its own interests behind that of others, it will deserve what it gets.


I think the "dictatorship" he was referring to isn't limited to the office of the President, but in the separation of our elected leaders and those that elected them. That is, the Senators, Representatives and Presidents that will do and say anything to get elected, and then govern not according to those that elected them.



Zonie63 -> RE: .....President Obama Urges Congress to Vote Conscience on Syria, Even If Public Opposed (9/7/2013 8:40:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Satyr please tell me that you are not suggesting that all the US's problems in the ME will be solved simply by replacing the person in the White House.

Obama's policies are barely distinguishable from those of his predecessor, whose policies weren't that different from his predecessor etc . A little more emphasis here, a little less there but for the most part, policy remains the same irrespective of which party is in the White House or controls Congress.

The problem is not the person implementing the policies, the problem is that the policy is not designed to further US interests but is designed to further the interests of other nations. Until this is fixed, you can look forward to further disasters for the US in the ME. And quite honestly for as long as the US is silly enough to put its own interests behind that of others, it will deserve what it gets.


This is true enough. I suppose the real problem that needs to be fixed is the widespread belief in the illusion of difference between the two major political parties. As I mentioned in another thread, I don't think issues of conscience or sentiment should enter into this, since we also have to examine our practical national interests as well. U.S. foreign policy has mainly concentrated on furthering ideological interests, but not the interests of any nation in particular. The globalist perspective (which both parties embrace full tilt) would dictate that there are no "nations" any more, only conflicting ideologies/belief systems and transnational corporate competitors.




DaddySatyr -> RE: .....President Obama Urges Congress to Vote Conscience on Syria, Even If Public Opposed (9/7/2013 8:57:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Satyr please tell me that you are not suggesting that all the US's problems in the ME will be solved simply by replacing the person in the White House.
Obama's policies are barely distinguishable from those of his predecessor, whose policies weren't that different from his predecessor etc . A little more emphasis here, a little less there but for the most part, policy remains the same irrespective of which party is in the White House or controls Congress.
The problem is not the person implementing the policies, the problem is that the policy is not designed to further US interests but is designed to further the interests of other nations. Until this is fixed, you can look forward to further disasters for the US in the ME. And quite honestly for as long as the US is silly enough to put its own interests behind that of others, it will deserve what it gets.



I think the "dictatorship" he was referring to isn't limited to the office of the President, but in the separation of our elected leaders and those that elected them. That is, the Senators, Representatives and Presidents that will do and say anything to get elected, and then govern not according to those that elected them.



Spot on, which would have been evidenced by reading:

quote:

ORIGINAL DaddySatyr

So, I guess we need to ask if our country is supposed to be a dictatorship - whether there's one or 537 of them - or if it is supposed to be a democratic republic where our representatives are sent to Washington DC to espouse our viewpoints or, if they think elections elevate them to a "ruling class".



The "537" should have been a dead give-away as that's how many federal elected officials this country has.



Politesub53 -> RE: .....President Obama Urges Congress to Vote Conscience on Syria, Even If Public Opposed (9/7/2013 5:41:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Final results? If it is an overwhelming vote against military action, a vote will not be taken. Obama owns this one. He drew the red line in the sand.


You need to rethink the section I have bolded.



Lucylastic -> RE: .....President Obama Urges Congress to Vote Conscience on Syria, Even If Public Opposed (9/7/2013 5:57:18 PM)

yeah I think something imploded...



Politesub53 -> RE: .....President Obama Urges Congress to Vote Conscience on Syria, Even If Public Opposed (9/7/2013 6:05:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

yeah I think something imploded...


Can I say........ Ah okay, I`ll let you guess.



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