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RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/14/2013 4:42:44 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

I carry a Tarus millenium pro and always sit it the middle seats, best view of the stage, best line too shoot so that isn't a problem for me.
Finding a seat in the dark and seeing someone standing in front of the screen are two different things.


So you are confident you could still hit the target then. This despite the gunman having thrown smoke and gas canisters at the audience, causing peoples vision to be obscured, skin to itch and eyes iritation. Add to this the panic caused by him then firing his shotgun at the audience and the ceiling before opening fire with his other weapons ?

A laughable claim to insist on.


Not at all. Gas is heavier than air so it would not reach me he is still illuminated by the screen behind him.
This obviously escaped your notice but those milling people you insist would make him hard to pick out would be moving AWAY from him not moving up to form a human shield. What is laughable is the refusal of people who know nothing of these things pretending to be all knowing.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 241
RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/14/2013 4:53:37 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Some gasses will eventually settle on the ground, others are lighter than air.

Your suggestion everyone will be moving away from him giving you a clear line of sight and that the gases wouldnt have any effect on you is still only your suggestion.

The notion I am all knowing isnt true, the notion that at least I can use google, is true though.

So far on this thread I have pointed out the shooter used the shotgun first, and that bullets did indeed go through walls and injure people.

Two claims those who allegedly "know more than me" have said didnt happen.... Go figure !

edited for spelling


< Message edited by Politesub53 -- 9/14/2013 4:56:45 PM >

(in reply to BamaD)
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RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/14/2013 5:05:33 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Some gasses will eventually settle on the ground, others are lighter than air.

Your suggestion everyone will be moving away from him giving you a clear line of sight and that the gases wouldnt have any effect on you is still only your suggestion.

The notion I am all knowing isnt true, the notion that at least I can use google, is true though.

So far on this thread I have pointed out the shooter used the shotgun first, and that bullets did indeed go through walls and injure people.

Two claims those who allegedly "know more than me" have said didnt happen.... Go figure !

edited for spelling


He used the shotgun because the crappy hi capacity magazines jammed.
You failed in your attempt to claim that the armed citizen would have shot through walls into other theaters as they would be firing towards the screen which had no theater behind it. It was not claimed that bullets would not go through walls but that the citizen's bullets would not go into another theater a claim which you spectacularly failed to disprove.
Your argument contends that it would have been worse if someone had had the means to fight back.
This defies all reason particularly when you consider the fact that upon meting armed opposition the coward instantly surrendered

< Message edited by BamaD -- 9/14/2013 5:11:36 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 243
RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/14/2013 5:17:10 PM   
dcnovice


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One of my history profs used to say, "'What if?' history is a nice parlor game."

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it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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Profile   Post #: 244
RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/14/2013 5:17:41 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Some gasses will eventually settle on the ground, others are lighter than air.

Your suggestion everyone will be moving away from him giving you a clear line of sight and that the gases wouldnt have any effect on you is still only your suggestion.

The notion I am all knowing isnt true, the notion that at least I can use google, is true though.

So far on this thread I have pointed out the shooter used the shotgun first, and that bullets did indeed go through walls and injure people.

Two claims those who allegedly "know more than me" have said didnt happen.... Go figure !

edited for spelling


He used the shotgun because the crappy hi capacity magazines jammed.
You failed in your attempt to claim that the armed citizen would have shot through walls into other theaters as they would be firing towards the screen which had no theater behind it. It was not claimed that bullets would not go through walls but that the citizen's bullets would not go into another theater a claim which you spectacularly failed to disprove.
Your argument contends that it would have been worse if someone had had the means to fight back.
This defies all reason particularly when you consider the fact that upon meting armed opposition the coward instantly surrendered


No he didnt, he fired the shotgun first.

Hillwill also claimed bullets wouldnt go through walls when I sad that they had done. You really need to read the thread before taking swipes at what I have and havent said. To quote Kirata "you are making shit up"

Actually old sport, my assertion, stated to Kirata earlier, is no guns at all would be a better solution.

You think I am wrong then feel free to quote me.



(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 245
RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/14/2013 6:19:37 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Some gasses will eventually settle on the ground, others are lighter than air.

Your suggestion everyone will be moving away from him giving you a clear line of sight and that the gases wouldnt have any effect on you is still only your suggestion.

The notion I am all knowing isnt true, the notion that at least I can use google, is true though.

So far on this thread I have pointed out the shooter used the shotgun first, and that bullets did indeed go through walls and injure people.

Two claims those who allegedly "know more than me" have said didnt happen.... Go figure !

edited for spelling


He used the shotgun because the crappy hi capacity magazines jammed.
You failed in your attempt to claim that the armed citizen would have shot through walls into other theaters as they would be firing towards the screen which had no theater behind it. It was not claimed that bullets would not go through walls but that the citizen's bullets would not go into another theater a claim which you spectacularly failed to disprove.
Your argument contends that it would have been worse if someone had had the means to fight back.
This defies all reason particularly when you consider the fact that upon meting armed opposition the coward instantly surrendered


No he didnt, he fired the shotgun first.

Hillwill also claimed bullets wouldnt go through walls when I sad that they had done. You really need to read the thread before taking swipes at what I have and havent said. To quote Kirata "you are making shit up"

Actually old sport, my assertion, stated to Kirata earlier, is no guns at all would be a better solution.

You think I am wrong then feel free to quote me.




You miss the point Hill was trying to get it through to you that even if the citizens shots went through the back wall there was no theater for them to go into. Thus your contention that the citizen would be endangering people in other theaters was totally bogus.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 246
RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/14/2013 6:41:28 PM   
TheHeretic


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Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
no guns at all would be a better solution.



If my aunt had a dick, she'd be my uncle.

Staying in the realm of reality, creating uncertainty and discomfort for criminals with armed law abiding folks as a variable is a positive step.

I'd swear I went over that once before in here.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 247
RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/14/2013 6:46:28 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		Fr
His making himself up as the Joker means that he would have made a point of being seen clearly.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 248
RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/14/2013 7:15:55 PM   
Rule


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Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
I'd swear I went over that once before in here.

All subs are equal, but some subs are more equal than others.

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"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 249
RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/14/2013 7:23:33 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Theres only one pro gun oh maybe two pro gun people who have posted in this thread that I would feel secure going to a movie with in their armed presence.

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Profile   Post #: 250
RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/14/2013 8:27:59 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Only if you are buying the popcorn and sodas.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 251
RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/14/2013 8:46:40 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		oooooh maybe 3

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( (> A NASTY
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Profile   Post #: 252
RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/15/2013 12:47:50 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR
One of my history profs used to say, "'What if?' history is a nice parlor game."


Indeed. Just like making extravagant claims that tragedies would have been prevented "if only an armed citizen had been present". Just a variation of "What if ...." located in this instance somewhere between wishful thinking and fantasy.

The only certainty is that such claims cannot to be taken seriously.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 9/15/2013 12:50:21 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 253
RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/15/2013 12:52:36 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR
One of my history profs used to say, "'What if?' history is a nice parlor game."


Indeed. Just like making extravagant claims that tragedies would have been prevented "if only an armed citizen had been present". Just a variation of "What if ...." located in this instance somewhere between wishful thinking and fantasy.

The only certainty is that such claims cannot to be taken seriously.

We provide facts you provide I don't want to believe it.
Who can't be taken seriously?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 254
RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/15/2013 12:59:39 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

BamaD

quote:



ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:



ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR
One of my history profs used to say, "'What if?' history is a nice parlor game."



Indeed. Just like making extravagant claims that tragedies would have been prevented "if only an armed citizen had been present". Just a variation of "What if ...." located in this instance somewhere between wishful thinking and fantasy.

The only certainty is that such claims cannot to be taken seriously.


We provide facts you provide I don't want to believe it.
Who can't be taken seriously?




How can anything that starts with an 'if' be a fact?

Any claim of the type: "disaster could have been averted if an armed citizen had been present" cannot be factual.

Self evidently so.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 9/15/2013 1:06:06 AM >

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RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/15/2013 3:38:22 AM   
Kirata


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

How can anything that starts with an 'if' be a fact?

I hate to quibble with one of Australia's two premier experts on America, but if I step onto the tracks in front of an oncoming train, I'm going to be killed. Let me know if you need more examples in order to grasp the concept.

More directly related to the topic, I'll grant that it is all but impossible to assemble a complete dataset on the subject. Instances of disasters prevented by an armed citizen, especially if the weapon wasn't fired, tend to go unreported. But not all cases fall into that fortunate category.

So in addition to the information we can glean from surveys about defensive gun use, we have the facts of cases that did get reported. Based on these, we can assert that disasters have been averted, and none made worse, by armed citizens being present, and are likely to continue to be.

Of course, someone might get lucky and survive the train. And the presence of armed citizens may prove to have been unlucky in a case not yet reported. But the facts at hand are not on the side of either.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/15/2013 4:31:31 AM >

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RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/15/2013 3:46:24 AM   
Kirata


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~ FR ~

I'm not sure how so many people came by the idea that the shooter was firing from the front of theater, myself included, but it seems not to be true. In reviewing some of the news stories, it appears that he was walking up and down the aisles. And this changes two elements of the analysis:

Firstly, he would have been silouetted for some people, depending on where they were seated relative to him and the screen, but not for everyone. Secondly, it's not necessarily true that someone seated toward the middle or rear of the theater would have had to make their way forward in order to get a shot.

Some patrons, at least, would have had a silouetted target at virtually point blank range. Others wouldn't have had any shot at all regardless of where they were sitting. And the rest would fall somewhere in between.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/15/2013 3:49:38 AM >

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RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/15/2013 4:05:01 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		thank god one person has the intellectual honesty to give the FACTS about what the shooter did and DIDNT do, cut out the maybes and IFS
Thank you K...


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Profile   Post #: 258
RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/15/2013 4:46:58 AM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

You miss the point Hill was trying to get it through to you that even if the citizens shots went through the back wall there was no theater for them to go into. Thus your contention that the citizen would be endangering people in other theaters was totally bogus.



I didnt miss any point. The claim was clearly made that he would have needed magic bullets. Others and myself pointed out that wasnt true.
I see you have now dropped the bogus claim that he used the shotgun first.

Lets digress slightly though, he wasnt infront of the screen either, he was to one side by the door. You assume the next shooter is going to be directly infront of the screen, so what if he had come back through the door and moved up the aisle a tad. Your wwhole scenarion falls apart, while the danger of bullets going through walls becomes less likely.

If anyone is missing the fucking point, it certainly isnt me.

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Profile   Post #: 259
RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/15/2013 4:54:47 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Fr
His making himself up as the Joker means that he would have made a point of being seen clearly.


Rich wants reality, so lets have a bit more.

Firstly, the joker claim was made by someone in the NYPD. The local police chief, or soemeome in his office, said that as far as he knew that wasnt true.

Secondly, the kid didnt make himself up as the joker, he was dressed in protective gear.

Thirdly, he also walked up the aisle shooting at those trying to flee.

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Profile   Post #: 260
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