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Why is it? - 9/7/2013 7:12:37 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
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From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Why is it that when there is a terrorist attack by a Muslim group, the liberals scream that we should not judge a group by a small number of fanatics.

I do it, and there are a lot of liberal users on this board that also do it.

Now, when some angry or mentally unstable individual uses a gun, all gun owners are judged as irrational, immoral and they should not be allowed to own guns.

There are over 8 million gun owners in this country. And everyone one of us are judged on the actions of an individual. We are told that our right to own firearms should be eliminated. That we are barbaric and dangerous.

A stance that I consider hypocritical at best.

If we are not to judge all Muslims on the actions of a few, then by god give gun owners the same respect, or shut the fuck up.

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RE: Why is it? - 9/7/2013 7:14:49 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Now, when some angry or mentally unstable individual uses a gun, all gun owners are judged as irrational, immoral and they should not be allowed to own guns.

By some anti-gun people. And you know the reason why. It's the core reason for pretty much every political statement on these boards. They have a pre-existing idea and they take facts which support their idea and reject facts which deny the idea. It's what ideologues do.


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RE: Why is it? - 9/7/2013 7:24:31 PM   
BenevolentM


Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline 		I touched on this in

What makes it a war crime?
http://www.collarchat.com/m_4536133/tm.htm

Being consistent in one regard does not make you consistent in every regard. Peace is war and war is peace. That's why.

Examine yourself. You wish to hold an instrument of war for peace.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Why is it that when there is a terrorist attack by a Muslim group, the liberals scream that we should not judge a group by a small number of fanatics.

I do it, and there are a lot of liberal users on this board that also do it.

Now, when some angry or mentally unstable individual uses a gun, all gun owners are judged as irrational, immoral and they should not be allowed to own guns.

There are over 8 million gun owners in this country. And everyone one of us are judged on the actions of an individual. We are told that our right to own firearms should be eliminated. That we are barbaric and dangerous.

A stance that I consider hypocritical at best.

If we are not to judge all Muslims on the actions of a few, then by god give gun owners the same respect, or shut the fuck up.

(in reply to jlf1961)
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RE: Why is it? - 9/7/2013 7:32:50 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Now, when some angry or mentally unstable individual uses a gun, all gun owners are judged as irrational, immoral and they should not be allowed to own guns.

By some anti-gun people. And you know the reason why. It's the core reason for pretty much every political statement on these boards. They have a pre-existing idea and they take facts which support their idea and reject facts which deny the idea. It's what ideologues do.


This.

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RE: Why is it? - 9/7/2013 9:53:17 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I do give gun owners the same respect. And have, repeatedly. The system is obviously broken. Its time gun owners came up with some solutions.

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RE: Why is it? - 9/7/2013 11:58:11 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		Knee jerk responses aren't the monopoly of any side in this debate.

Recently, on a gun-related thread, I proposed that the discussion focus on "reducing the availability of (overwhelmingly illegal) guns in the public domain" hoping to get past the usual set-in-concrete positions held by various sides in this discussion. It was phrased quite deliberately to acknowledge and include the standard argument from the pro-gun side that the problems lay mainly with the illegal use of guns. The hope was that a fresh and productive conversation could ensue.

Did it work? Not for an instant. The pro-gun posters trotted out the usual "I'm not giving an inch/It's my Constitutional right ...blah! blah! blah!" spiel that they have been trotting out for years as the mountain of corpses from gun violence mounts up and up and up. I concluded that the posters concerned didn't have any interest in addressing the issues that arise from gun violence regardless of whether legal or illegal weapons are used. All their claims about illegal weapons was just empty rhetoric and posturing.

Whether this reaction is typical of the gun lobby in general or just the personal response of a few gun nuts here I am not in a position to say. But I was reminded of the NRA's La Pierre's blame shifting posturing which he trots out when asked to respond to the latest gun atrocity in the US. La Pierre's absolute denial of any responsibility is remarkable only for its neat trick of managing to combine backwoods intransigence and unconscionable denial with hyperbole. When these less than visionary qualities are combined, they guarantee that the discussion remains stuck in the same logjam is has been stuck in for decades.



< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 9/8/2013 12:05:07 AM >

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RE: Why is it? - 9/8/2013 1:55:04 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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As a life long hunter and gun owner I am frequently very critical of most other gun owners. The reason is, and any honest and responsible gun person has to admit this, most gun owners should never be allowed to even touch a firearm much less carry one in public. The fact is most gun owners ignore the most basic of gun safety rules and handle very dangerous weapons in ways that far too often do not have fatal consequences through dumb luck. Go out in the woods the first weekend of deer season and just count the number of hunters breaking every gun safety rule. The ones shooting at movement without visually identifying what they are shooting at (that is why the blaze orange patches are required and even wearing bright orange clothing doesn't keep a number of people from being shot each year by dumbass deer hunters), the ones hunting while drunk, the ones carrying weapons without safeties loaded (break open shotguns for instance).

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RE: Why is it? - 9/8/2013 3:50:37 AM   
brokendom111


Posts: 9
Joined: 9/6/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

FR
As a life long hunter and gun owner I am frequently very critical of most other gun owners. The reason is, and any honest and responsible gun person has to admit this, most gun owners should never be allowed to even touch a firearm much less carry one in public. The fact is most gun owners ignore the most basic of gun safety rules and handle very dangerous weapons in ways that far too often do not have fatal consequences through dumb luck. Go out in the woods the first weekend of deer season and just count the number of hunters breaking every gun safety rule. The ones shooting at movement without visually identifying what they are shooting at (that is why the blaze orange patches are required and even wearing bright orange clothing doesn't keep a number of people from being shot each year by dumbass deer hunters), the ones hunting while drunk, the ones carrying weapons without safeties loaded (break open shotguns for instance).



Ah,....muslim hunters!

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RE: Why is it? - 9/8/2013 3:56:30 AM   
brokendom111


Posts: 9
Joined: 9/6/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Why is it that when there is a terrorist attack by a Muslim group, the liberals scream that we should not judge a group by a small number of fanatics.

I do it, and there are a lot of liberal users on this board that also do it.

Now, when some angry or mentally unstable individual uses a gun, all gun owners are judged as irrational, immoral and they should not be allowed to own guns.

There are over 8 million gun owners in this country. And everyone one of us are judged on the actions of an individual. We are told that our right to own firearms should be eliminated. That we are barbaric and dangerous.

A stance that I consider hypocritical at best.

If we are not to judge all Muslims on the actions of a few, then by god give gun owners the same respect, or shut the fuck up.


Jlf, I can't argue with you because you're right.
All the major shooters of the last 15 years or so have been severely mentally ill but no-one on the left or in the govt. cares to address that fact it seems.

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RE: Why is it? - 9/8/2013 4:22:38 AM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Now, when some angry or mentally unstable individual uses a gun, all gun owners are judged as irrational, immoral and they should not be allowed

I honestly can't recall ever hearing anyone say this.

Here on CM, I've read some gun-toting posts that have made me wonder about links between gun ownership, paranoia, and whining, but that's another story.

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RE: Why is it? - 9/8/2013 4:33:59 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		ignoring facts is a very good sign.




Attachment (1)

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(•_•)
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\(•_•)
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(•_•)
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RE: Why is it? - 9/8/2013 6:58:42 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brokendom111
All the major shooters of the last 15 years or so have been severely mentally ill but no-one on the left or in the govt. cares to address that fact it seems.


I would not agree that "no one" on the left or in the government cares to address the problem with mental illness in this country, although I'll concede that not enough is being done. Too much societal attention is being placed on guns and weapons, without addressing the real causes of mental illness, violence, or even terrorism and wars. It's a mentality which puts the cart before the horse, and I've seen it applied in other areas of governmental policy.

For example, during the Cold War, the big issue was arms limitation talks, as if that was the be all and end all of preventing war. The best way to prevent war is to reach out the hand of friendship and brotherhood, to reduce the tensions and points of disagreement so that our adversaries can become our friends. Reducing the supply of weapons doesn't do shit. As the old saying goes "Nobody forgets where they buried the hatchet."

The same mentality is operating today, as the big fear about Iran is that they might get WMDs. Nothing about trying to make peace with them or ameliorate the tensions in that region, probably because it doesn't suit the U.S. government or ruling class.

Many of the same misguided thought processes also take place in the debate on guns. Alluding to what you mentioned, not enough is being done for the mentally ill, poor, or disadvantaged in this country.

We also don't really take a good hard look at the causes of mental illness and the general level of stress and pressure which is put on people in their daily lives. The most society will try to do is medicate and/or warehouse the mentally ill, which isn't much of a solution, but even then, it's a low priority and budgets are tight these days. So, there just aren't enough resources to deal with the problem.

Face it, we have a society that just doesn't care about the sufferings of others UNTIL they do something violent, and then everyone starts wringing their hands wondering about why these things happen.

I've seen the mentality displayed in society quite frequently. Someone might be "whining" (a popular term used in this forum) and perhaps seem a bit off and clearly in emotional pain, yet how are they treated? People tend to be rather harsh and unfeeling, telling people to "man up" and that "shit happens, deal with it." Things like that. That is, until they're driven to the verge of suicide or murder, and then people suddenly do a 180 and start being nice and conciliatory: "Oh you have so much to live for" or "Please don't hurt anybody."

It's ironic that with some of these mass shooters who survive, the government magically finds the money to hire armies of psychiatrists and resources for mental health treatment after they commit murder, but before they committed murder, they couldn't get shit.



< Message edited by Zonie63 -- 9/8/2013 7:04:37 AM >

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RE: Why is it? - 9/8/2013 7:35:33 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brokendom111


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Why is it that when there is a terrorist attack by a Muslim group, the liberals scream that we should not judge a group by a small number of fanatics.

I do it, and there are a lot of liberal users on this board that also do it.

Now, when some angry or mentally unstable individual uses a gun, all gun owners are judged as irrational, immoral and they should not be allowed to own guns.

There are over 8 million gun owners in this country. And everyone one of us are judged on the actions of an individual. We are told that our right to own firearms should be eliminated. That we are barbaric and dangerous.

A stance that I consider hypocritical at best.

If we are not to judge all Muslims on the actions of a few, then by god give gun owners the same respect, or shut the fuck up.


Jlf, I can't argue with you because you're right.
All the major shooters of the last 15 years or so have been severely mentally ill but no-one on the left or in the govt. cares to address that fact it seems.

Beyond that not being true what precisely should be done? How should society respond to someone who seems at most eccentric? None of these mass murderers have been reported to have been unable to function prior to their rampages.

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RE: Why is it? - 9/8/2013 7:40:23 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline

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Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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RE: Why is it? - 9/8/2013 9:25:13 AM   
sloguy02246


Posts: 534
Joined: 11/5/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

ignoring facts is a very good sign.




I could never have stated it better than that.
Bravo!

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RE: Why is it? - 9/8/2013 2:25:38 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The fact is most gun owners ignore the most basic of gun safety rules and handle very dangerous weapons in ways that far too often do not have fatal consequences through dumb luck. Go out in the woods the first weekend of deer season and just count the number of hunters breaking every gun safety rule.

This is a perfect example of the kind of crap that make discussion impossible. On what basis do you generalize from your limited personal experience to these expanisve claims about "most" gun owners? The only fact here is that you are peddling your opinion as a one, without a shred of evidence to support it.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/8/2013 2:35:18 PM >

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RE: Why is it? - 9/8/2013 2:34:56 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The fact is most gun owners ignore the most basic of gun safety rules and handle very dangerous weapons in ways that far too often do not have fatal consequences through dumb luck. Go out in the woods the first weekend of deer season and just count the number of hunters breaking every gun safety rule.

This is a perfect example of the kind of crap that make discussion impossible. On what basis do you generalize from your limited personal experience to these expanisve claims about "most" gun owners? The only fact here is that you are peddling your opinion as a one, without a shred of evidence to support it.

K.



Blaze orange requirements would not be necessary, and required by law, if most gun hunters obeyed the single most basic rule of shooting. Case closed.

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RE: Why is it? - 9/8/2013 2:43:20 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Blaze orange requirements would not be necessary, and required by law, if most gun hunters obeyed the single most basic rule of shooting. Case closed.

Cue dance music: "most gun owners" just changed to "most gun hunters". And furthermore, the legislating of safety precautions hardly consititues proof that "most" people disobey basic safety rules.

In short, you don't have a case to close.

K.

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RE: Why is it? - 9/8/2013 2:57:45 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Blaze orange requirements would not be necessary, and required by law, if most gun hunters obeyed the single most basic rule of shooting. Case closed.

Cue dance music: "most gun owners" just changed to "most gun hunters". And furthermore, the legislating of safety precautions hardly consititues proof that "most" people disobey basic safety rules.
In short, you don't have a case to close.
K.


No, no, no, Kirata. Those requirements and warnings on products are there because most people who shoot guns and/or use those products us them incorrectly.



It has to be the vast majority, else they would have no reason to regulate it.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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RE: Why is it? - 9/8/2013 3:02:23 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
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I get the point about "most," but can't help noting that I've seldom seen CMers get worked up over its modifying, say, "libs" or "Democrats" or "welfare recipients" or, ahem, "unions."

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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