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Speech and Tool Making Evolved Together - 9/9/2013 11:41:57 AM

ChatteParfaitt

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According to this study:

Striking Patterns

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RE: Speech and Tool Making Evolved Together - 9/9/2013 4:10:16 PM

ARIES83

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Love it.

Tool making serves to showcase the abilities that come into play.

As far as I can see, making an object and expressing an idea are basicly the same process.
One interesting way to look at it is, that our hands communicate our will to the physical environment and this isn't a one way street, when you try something and it doesn't work thats feedback, a direct responce that requires thinking of a different approach... Not to mention imagination, abstract thinking, reasoning, conceptualisation, contemplation.

We are tool makers by trade, it's what we excel at and it's the skill thats made us excel.
With this post, I'm creating an expression of my will, in a medium which I'm manipulating to serve that purpose!
The medium could just as easily be stone or wood.

I say 'expression of will' as sort of an end product, theres a lot that comes into play to get there, I think it's our ability to work out the 'how' and get from point A to B, that has been the object of evolutionary strategies, and I think thats the real link bettween language and tool making.

< Message edited by ARIES83 -- 9/9/2013 4:39:57 PM >

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RE: Speech and Tool Making Evolved Together - 9/9/2013 5:04:19 PM

Rule

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FR

Myself I have noticed a correlation between the evolution of speech and an increase in the size of the penis.

I think that my hypothesis is the better one, for there are plenty of other tool making species that have not evolved speech, whereas them not having evolved speech does correlate with the absence of an increase in the size of their penis. Q.E.D.

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RE: Speech and Tool Making Evolved Together - 9/9/2013 5:41:22 PM

ARIES83

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Would you care to list the other tool making species rule?

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RE: Speech and Tool Making Evolved Together - 9/9/2013 5:48:29 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83
Would you care to list the other tool making species rule?

Oh well... Let's see what we get when we google "tool making species", then. Ah, an entire Wikipedia list:

quote:

3 In mammals
3.1 Primates
3.1.1 Chimpanzees
3.1.2 Orangutans
3.1.3 Gorillas
3.1.4 Capuchin monkeys
3.1.5 Baboons
3.1.6 Mandrills
3.1.7 Crab-eating macaques
3.1.8 Hunting mammals
3.1.9 Hunting invertebrates
3.1.10 Hunting fish
3.1.11 Collecting honey
3.1.12 Processing nuts, fruits, vegetables and seeds
3.1.13 Collecting water
3.1.14 Other uses
3.2 Elephants
3.3 Canines
3.4 Bears
3.5 Cetaceans
3.6 Sea otters
3.7 Mongooses
3.8 American badgers
4 In birds
4.1 Woodpecker Finches
4.2 Corvids
4.2.1 In the wild
4.2.2 In captivity
4.2.3 Play
4.3 Warblers
4.4 Parrots
4.5 Egyptian Vultures
4.6 Brown-headed Nuthatches
4.7 Gulls
4.8 Owls
5 In cephalopods
6 In fish
7 In insects

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RE: Speech and Tool Making Evolved Together - 9/9/2013 5:59:11 PM

ARIES83

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I suggest you read them and consider whether you are talking about "tool use" or "tool making...
I am talking about "tool making".

That Wikipedia list is titled "Tool use by animals."

< Message edited by ARIES83 -- 9/9/2013 6:03:52 PM >

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RE: Speech and Tool Making Evolved Together - 9/9/2013 6:19:41 PM

theshytype

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http://m.livescience.com/9761-10-animals-tools.html

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RE: Speech and Tool Making Evolved Together - 9/9/2013 6:25:47 PM

getoutnow

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Myself I have noticed a correlation between the evolution of speech and an increase in the size of the penis.

LMAO.

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RE: Speech and Tool Making Evolved Together - 9/9/2013 7:17:19 PM

ChatteParfaitt

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

I say 'expression of will' as sort of an end product, theres a lot that comes into play to get there, I think it's our ability to work out the 'how' and get from point A to B, that has been the object of evolutionary strategies, and I think thats the real link bettween language and tool making.

An excellent point. Other species communicate, and shytype's link (great link, BTW) shows some can make rudimentary tools. But we're the only species that extensively manipulates our environment AND communicates on more than one level (spoken & written). As a species, humans are considered the great adapters, the experts at getting from point a to point b, even when the rules change.

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RE: Speech and Tool Making Evolved Together - 9/9/2013 7:47:15 PM

littlewonder

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I've always had this nagging feeling that speech and tool making evolved together. I mean, how else would man be able to keep making tools in a better manner without being able to communicate through speech with each other? There needs to be a way to go from point A to point B and telling another how to go about doing that for the survival of the clan.

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RE: Speech and Tool Making Evolved Together - 9/10/2013 1:08:16 AM

ARIES83

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What about body language!

But yer, actual tool making through learning and cognition in the animal kingdom is super rare as far as I know... And super interesting!
I remember reading an article ages ago about our dextrous hands, being the driving force behind the selection of improved cognitive faculties... We already had the equipment in the form of opposable thumbs and multi jointed digits... A throwback from living in the trees, and the article talked about how developing better processing power to better utilise that equipment to manipulate objects etc led to the gradual trend of a ever larger growing brain.

I think it's interesting that the basic opposable thumb hand hasn't really changed all that much in a bazillion years, and yet brain size has sploded in a relatively tiny timeframe.

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RE: Speech and Tool Making Evolved Together - 9/10/2013 1:28:03 AM

ChatteParfaitt

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And there is a big question as to *how* our brains evolved, the latest theory being that a climate changed caused the adaptable early humans to be dependent on a meat rich diet, which fueled our brain development.

I find it interesting that Neanderthal man, which we now know did co-exist with early humans and even mated with early humans, did not keep pace with them in terms of cognitive and social development. This despite having larger brains and larger skulls. And that seems to come down to language.

An example would be again tool making. When Neanderthal developed a new tool technique, this new technique never traveled very far, generally within a 50 mile radius. When early man developed new techniques, they were adopted by others very rapidly and traveled hundreds and even thousands of miles. And in my mind that has to be because of better language abilities which led to improved socialization, and thus sharing tool making techniques.

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RE: Speech and Tool Making Evolved Together - 9/10/2013 5:21:50 AM

Rule

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But yer, actual tool making through learning and cognition in the animal kingdom is super rare as far as I know... And super interesting!

I remember reading an article ages ago about our dextrous trunk, being the driving force behind the selection of improved cognitive faculties... We already had the equipment in the form of our multi muscled and adroit trunk... A throwback from browsing branches, and the article talked about how developing better processing power to better utilise that equipment to manipulate objects etc, often in cooperation with other individuals, led to the gradual trend of an ever larger growing brain.

I think it's interesting that whereas the basic opposable thumb hand of apes nor their brain size hasn't really changed all that much in a bazillion years, and yet our elephant brain size has sploded in a relatively tiny timeframe.

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RE: Speech and Tool Making Evolved Together - 9/10/2013 5:50:20 AM

jlf1961

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Sure speech and tool making evolved together. We are talking about humans after all.

IMO, and I have a low opinion of humanity as a whole, the first words were "Og I am looking for a large rock to bash your head so I can steal your woman and your mammoth meat."

When Og woke up his first words were, "Son of a bitch, I really could use a mammoth burger about now."

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RE: Speech and Tool Making Evolved Together - 9/10/2013 5:52:16 AM

ARIES83

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Attachment (1)

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RE: Speech and Tool Making Evolved Together - 9/10/2013 6:42:18 AM

theshytype

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

And there is a big question as to *how* our brains evolved, the latest theory being that a climate changed caused the adaptable early humans to be dependent on a meat rich diet, which fueled our brain development.

I find it interesting that Neanderthal man, which we now know did co-exist with early humans and even mated with early humans, did not keep pace with them in terms of cognitive and social development. This despite having larger brains and larger skulls. And that seems to come down to language.

An example would be again tool making. When Neanderthal developed a new tool technique, this new technique never traveled very far, generally within a 50 mile radius. When early man developed new techniques, they were adopted by others very rapidly and traveled hundreds and even thousands of miles. And in my mind that has to be because of better language abilities which led to improved socialization, and thus sharing tool making techniques.

That's how I view things as well.

I believe that without our ability to verbally communicate, we wouldn't have succeeded as well as we have. That, without language, we would have been very limited to sharing ideas. Body language, for example, is a great form of communicating but is limited in what it tells us.

I'm not sure if you clicked on any of the links in the article I posted, but the crow I find to be the most interesting.

"However, Uek and Nalik, the two birds schooled in tool-making, carried and inserted twigs into crevices faster and more often than Oiseau and Corbeau, the two naïve crows. Also consistent with the idea that tool use among crows is partly inherited and partly learned, the researchers found that tools made by the four captive crows were crude compared with those made by adult crows living in the wild."

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RE: Speech and Tool Making Evolved Together - 9/10/2013 7:19:22 AM

Rule

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Each nest is a tool.

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RE: Speech and Tool Making Evolved Together - 9/10/2013 7:59:53 AM

ARIES83

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

And there is a big question as to *how* our brains evolved, the latest theory being that a climate changed caused the adaptable early humans to be dependent on a meat rich diet, which fueled our brain development.

I find it interesting that Neanderthal man, which we now know did co-exist with early humans and even mated with early humans, did not keep pace with them in terms of cognitive and social development. This despite having larger brains and larger skulls. And that seems to come down to language.

An example would be again tool making. When Neanderthal developed a new tool technique, this new technique never traveled very far, generally within a 50 mile radius. When early man developed new techniques, they were adopted by others very rapidly and traveled hundreds and even thousands of miles. And in my mind that has to be because of better language abilities which led to improved socialization, and thus sharing tool making techniques.

It's interesting, with neanderthals...

I would have to say that our level of intelligence goes way beyond whats necessary for hunting patterns and tool making, and I would probably say the specific types of intelligence which we seem to have over developed may be the product of social and sexual selection.
The difference with neanderthals apparent lower level of socialisation and yet large brain size is an interesting quandary.
I'm just leaning toward social and sexual selection in Homo Sapiens, driving an advancement in the structure of the brain to better deal with the social demands rather than a gross increase in volume.

Theres an interesting paper somewhere which has some interesting reasearch on what they called the 'Head Man' in tribal societies... I'll see if I can track it down.

Found it! http://www.umich.edu/~idpah/SEP/sep_te.html
Urmm, it's a tad on the long side... But I found it very interesting.
Theres some terminology in this article that may be out dated or unique like the "Index of Innate Ability" which I haven't seen anywhere else, but they explain the thinking behind it from memory, and it's pretty easy to digest.

I found the discription of the genitic implications of headmanship and hierarchy in tribal society good food for thought.

< Message edited by ARIES83 -- 9/10/2013 8:15:33 AM >

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RE: Speech and Tool Making Evolved Together - 9/10/2013 8:25:52 AM

ARIES83

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You haven't explained your penis theory yet rule.
judging by your bout of plagiarism, you obviously want to make a point...

And I for one am all ears, as long as you walk me through your reasoning, and don't just flop it out there.

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RE: Speech and Tool Making Evolved Together - 9/10/2013 11:24:28 AM

ChatteParfaitt

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Wow what a wall of text, in red no less.

His theory is outdated, it's been learned that human intelligence gets passed down from the mother.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/brainy-sons-owe-intelligence-to-their-mothers-1339099.html

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