RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill

RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill (Full Version)

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DaddySatyr -> RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill (9/10/2013 8:18:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: metamorfosis quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr And according to your own link, 12 states and DC have no law. Does 12 states not qualify as "quite a few"? I mean, "a few" is three. So, I think 12 qualifies as "quite a few". In fact, it's four "fews". No, 12 (out of 50) is not "quite a few", but even if it were, that would only mean there were "quite a few" states that have no law regarding fetal homicide. Your claim was that quite a few states don't regard it as fetal homicide until the fetus surpasses the weeks set by law for on-demand abortion. I could find no state at all for which that was true. Well, not to let facts get in the way of a passive-aggressive slam, aimed at me ... 12 out of 50 is 24%. That's almost a quarter of all the states in the union. If you include Washington, D.C. which doesn't belong to a state and therefore is its own dominion, you have 13 out of 50. That brings us to 25.5%. *More than* ¼ of the states.

dcnovice -> RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill (9/10/2013 8:20:32 PM)
FR From the OP's link: Every day is a nightmare for me ever since this began," Lee told Chris Cuomo on CNN's 'New Day' Tuesday. "Even hearing the guilty (plea) yesterday, it's hard to believe it, it's hard to read it and know that this actually happened to me." For me, the truly breathtaking things about this thread is that anyone could read about the living hell that will engulf this woman for the rest of her life and see it as a chance to whine about the plight of men.

naughtynick81 -> RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill (9/10/2013 8:21:59 PM)
quote: You did try and equate a man drugging someone without their knowledge to a man having to live up to his responsibilities for having unprotected consensual sex. You were clearly wrong and no amount of trying to walk that back will change your initial vile statement. Where did I try to equate that and what vile statement are you talking about? You seem to have terrible comprehension. What I'm exactly equating here is the same crime, if you want to call it a crime, which results to the same outcome regardless if the mother or father does it. So why two standards for that matter? Regardless if the father or mother does it, it's the exact same friggen outcome, you just ended a life. Therefore, it should be treated the same. On the other hand, the way this guy did it by tricking the mother into abortion drugs, I think that is totally wrong. The guy needs to be punished for that but not be convicted for murder.

naughtynick81 -> RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill (9/10/2013 8:27:15 PM)
quote: but it was Lee's dream to have a child. quote: "Nothing is going to bring back what was taken from her," Lee's attorney Gil Sanchez said. This sympathy is clearly directed at the fact alone that she couldn't have the child. A man's same plea wouldn't be taken as seriously if his dream was to have a child and it was taken away from him.

naughtynick81 -> RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill (9/10/2013 8:36:48 PM)
Should abortion be a crime? If you answer "no", that means you are flip flopping if you think this guy should be charged solely on the grounds of forcing an abortion. This guy shouldn't be charged for forcing an abortion, he should only get a felony assault charge for drugging her.

LadyPact -> RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill (9/10/2013 9:08:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: naughtynick81 LP, did you even read the article? If so, you would probably have a clear understanding of what this is actually about in regards of the sympathy double standard. That said, are you saying men don't feel any emotion, any loss, if a fetus exist from his offspring and it gets taken away over his will? Men just apparently laugh it off, shrug it off? Get real, lady! Yes, I did. However, the commonality is not based on emotion. You asked for equality under the law. You are missing any physical change to the male for it to be the same. A woman aborting a fetus does not cause any difference to the male body. Not a single physical cell. To date, there is no scientific proof that it does. In other words, 'emotional pain' does not translate into 'evidence'. It lacks tangible proof. Hold on though. I'm not done. quote: ORIGINAL: naughtynick81 This sympathy is clearly directed at the fact alone that she couldn't have the child. A man's same plea wouldn't be taken as seriously if his dream was to have a child and it was taken away from him. You are skipping the fact that a male could potentially impregnate another woman in the same amount of time that a woman would go through her next ovulation cycle. In other words, his dream isn't dead. quote: ORIGINAL: naughtynick81 Should abortion be a crime? If you answer "no", that means you are flip flopping if you think this guy should be charged solely on the grounds of forcing an abortion. This guy shouldn't be charged for forcing an abortion, he should only get a felony assault charge for drugging her. OK. Here's the good stuff. I actually agree with you that a murder charge was overreaching and most likely attempting to angle to force a wedge into abortion law. Frankly, in My personal opinion, the same case and potential sentence could have been obtained by using other tactics: Felony assault. Medical procedure without a license. Attempted manslaughter. (Abortion pills are not risk free to the mother.) Grievous bodily harm. Etc, etc. I think the real issue here was a lawyer trying to make a name for themselves.

metamorfosis -> RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill (9/10/2013 9:36:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr Well, not to let facts get in the way of a passive-aggressive slam, aimed at me ... If it's easier for you to dismiss an argument as "passive aggression", knock yourself out, I guess. Don't let logic get in the way of your attempt at evasion.

sexyred1 -> RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill (9/10/2013 9:52:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: getoutnow quote: but it was Lee's dream to have a child LMAO. This is one of the reasons why I wont date single moms on here on CM. They never aspired to anything else than having children. Single moms here destroy guys who have no kids. 1) You end up paying for their sprogs. 2) You get told things like "But we are a family now" 3) The single mom double dips, she gets welfare, she gets the dad to pay and then she gets the new man to pay, all for her child. 4) In the beginning you find yourself with a lot of time with the MOM. But when you get married that time is gone. Infact your time is now hers. You have to do as you are told as you are a family now. Yes trips here and there with her demon spawn as you the taxi driver are in store. What you didnt know is there was an army of her friends doing jobs for her when she was dating you. Now she is married, she and her friends have to sucker someone else to marry one of her friends with a kid. 5) When the child is a teen, they will tell the new "step dad". you are not my real dad, you can't tell me what to do. 6) When the child gets married, guess who has to pay? Yeah the new dad. and guess what, he'll be the one in the back row or never even invited. 7) When the child grows up, is another loser like her mom and living with the new dad at 21. Gone are the dreams where you think they will flock the nest and you'll have privacy with the mom. Nope think again. 8) Finally and the death knell. Single moms who have a kid or two kids, usually dont want kids any more. Guess what matey, for all intents purposes you are infertile. Who is gonna have your own kids now? I have seen all these things happen and worse and many more. Single guys reading this. Stay away from Single MOMs. You have been warned! Thank goodness single moms and all women have been warned. You may not choose to be with someone with kids, but your moronic and stereotypical generalizations are truly disgusting to all the hardworking (multiple jobs) single mothers who are either widowed, divorced, or in myriad of circumstances.

metamorfosis -> RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill (9/10/2013 10:02:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: metamorfosis If you're saying men deserve no sympathy for losing a pregnancy they wanted simply because they're not the ones carrying the child, then I'd say you're proving Nick's point. quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact I would disagree. There is no infringement to the male's body. Therefore, they can not be constituted as the same. In order to induce an abortion in this manner, a chemical poison had to be introduced. To date, no male who has wanted a fetus to come to term has had such a physical disturbance introduced to his person. No substance reagent to cause a physical response. The loss of a fetus to a male exists on the mental and emotional realm. Nothing forced into his physical body against his will. The closest equivalent would be an agent introduced by an outside party that would leave him temporarily sterile. I agree that women have more invested in pregnancy than men because the pregnancy takes place on their bodies. I would agree that women are deserving of more sympathy if a desired pregnancy is lost, for that exact reason. What I said in the post you responded to was, "If you're saying men deserve no sympathy for losing a pregnancy..." It wasn't clear to me from what you said in post #24 that you feel men deserve any sympathy at all. If you had simply said, men deserve some sympathy, but less than women due to the fact that their not physically involved in the pregnancy, I would have agreed with you.

LadyPact -> RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill (9/10/2013 10:07:44 PM)
I didn't think we were discussing sympathy. I thought we were discussing law.

metamorfosis -> RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill (9/10/2013 10:13:54 PM)
The reason I asked "If you're saying..." is because I wanted to clarify that.

DomKen -> RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill (9/10/2013 10:15:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: naughtynick81 quote: You did try and equate a man drugging someone without their knowledge to a man having to live up to his responsibilities for having unprotected consensual sex. You were clearly wrong and no amount of trying to walk that back will change your initial vile statement. Where did I try to equate that and what vile statement are you talking about? You seem to have terrible comprehension. What I'm exactly equating here is the same crime, if you want to call it a crime, which results to the same outcome regardless if the mother or father does it. So why two standards for that matter? Regardless if the father or mother does it, it's the exact same friggen outcome, you just ended a life. Therefore, it should be treated the same. On the other hand, the way this guy did it by tricking the mother into abortion drugs, I think that is totally wrong. The guy needs to be punished for that but not be convicted for murder. You cannot possibly be that dense.

naughtynick81 -> RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill (9/10/2013 10:21:19 PM)
quote: You cannot possibly be that dense. You're the one looking idiotic as you keep making claims against me and not backing them up simply because your claims don't exist. Stop putting words in my mouth and actually think about what I say.

tweakabelle -> RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill (9/10/2013 10:37:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 quote: ORIGINAL: getoutnow quote: but it was Lee's dream to have a child LMAO. This is one of the reasons why I wont date single moms on here on CM. They never aspired to anything else than having children. Single moms here destroy guys who have no kids. 1) You end up paying for their sprogs. 2) You get told things like "But we are a family now" 3) The single mom double dips, she gets welfare, she gets the dad to pay and then she gets the new man to pay, all for her child. 4) In the beginning you find yourself with a lot of time with the MOM. But when you get married that time is gone. Infact your time is now hers. You have to do as you are told as you are a family now. Yes trips here and there with her demon spawn as you the taxi driver are in store. What you didnt know is there was an army of her friends doing jobs for her when she was dating you. Now she is married, she and her friends have to sucker someone else to marry one of her friends with a kid. 5) When the child is a teen, they will tell the new "step dad". you are not my real dad, you can't tell me what to do. 6) When the child gets married, guess who has to pay? Yeah the new dad. and guess what, he'll be the one in the back row or never even invited. 7) When the child grows up, is another loser like her mom and living with the new dad at 21. Gone are the dreams where you think they will flock the nest and you'll have privacy with the mom. Nope think again. 8) Finally and the death knell. Single moms who have a kid or two kids, usually dont want kids any more. Guess what matey, for all intents purposes you are infertile. Who is gonna have your own kids now? I have seen all these things happen and worse and many more. Single guys reading this. Stay away from Single MOMs. You have been warned! Thank goodness single moms and all women have been warned. You may not choose to be with someone with kids, but your moronic and stereotypical generalizations are truly disgusting to all the hardworking (multiple jobs) single mothers who are either widowed, divorced, or in myriad of circumstances. This. Thank you sexyred1 for speaking out on behalf of single mums, one of the most maligned groups of people going. Some of my friends are single mums. They have it tough. Really tough. They don't have the time to defend themselves against the kind of vicious attack seen in the post you responded to. And they most certainly don't deserve it either. quote: DomKen You [naughtynick] cannot possibly be that dense. As is so often the case, DK's claim is wrong. Dear little nikki could very well be that dense. I'm not saying that he is, but I'm certainly not ruling out the possibility.

naughtynick81 -> RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill (9/10/2013 10:38:17 PM)
quote: You are skipping the fact that a male could potentially impregnate another woman in the same amount of time that a woman would go through her next ovulation cycle. In other words, his dream isn't dead. Not at all. The fact that YOU ARE SKIPPING is that men also have feelings over a fetus that gets taken away from them. Yet the way the article sympathises the woman as for what's quoted here... quote: but it was Lee's dream to have a child. quote: "Nothing is going to bring back what was taken from her," Lee's attorney Gil Sanchez said. A man would be considered insensitive if he had that same stance in regards of things being the other way around. If a man made that stance, people like you would be quick to say "what about the woman and how she feels... That said, I'm not leaving out what the man exactly did to the woman by tricking her into abortion. I think that is very wrong. But what I'm simply comparing here is the sympathy towards a man who wants a child and gets denied one compared to a woman who wants a child and gets denied one, excluding the circumstances in this story. Them 2 quotes I did in that post would be considered a pass when it's in favour of women while if it swings in favour of men, it's considered being insensitive of the woman's rights of abortion.

BitYakin -> RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill (9/11/2013 12:38:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama quote: there's a clear logical failure here. if the man is guilty of murder, then all abortion must be murder. if abortion is not murder, then this man cannot be charged with murder. maybe harm to another person, misleading them into taking a drug, but not murder. you can't just make murder ok because a certain person is doing it, and punish another for it. John Andrew Welden pleaded guilty Monday to federal charges of product tampering and mail fraud, admitting in court, as he had to detectives, that he slipped his ex-girlfriend an abortion drug. Read more: http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/john-andrew-welden-pleads-guilty-in-tampa-abortion-pill-case/2140798 that was a PLEA ARRANGMENT, he was CHARGED WITH MURDER! Welden was indicted under the rarely used federal Unborn Victims of Violence Act, a murder charge that carries a life sentence. Todd Foster, Welden's defense attorney, told reporters that the stakes of going to trial were too high. "The possibility of a mandatory life sentence, no discretion to the judge, obviously is a big factor," and I have to agree, if its MURDER for ANYONE to cause an abortion then its murder for EVERYONE to cause an abortion! I do see the point, if you wanna charge the guy with whatever for what he did to the woman , well OK he probably commited several offenses, but if its not murder for ONE PERSON to cause an abortion then its not murder for ANYONE to cause an abortion!

naughtynick81 -> RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill (9/11/2013 12:46:49 AM)
BitYakin Unfortunately, many people prefer to skirt around this point and waffle on about the other circumstances in this scenario.

hlen5 -> RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill (9/11/2013 12:47:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: hlen5 If I thought Nick could actually hear it, I'd agree that it's unfair for the bio-Dad to not have a say in a pregnancy. Well I heard it and thanks. Although I still think that this bit of unfairness is trumped by the woman's right to her own body. I just wish such decisions also carried the financial implications along with them.... you want to keep the baby and the other partner doesn't? Fine. Then keep it and pay for it. Yeah, that's not a perfect solution either. I doubt there is a perfect solution. These kind of discussions ought to come up BEFORE the clothes come off. I feel her choice does trump his, but again that's unfair if they BOTH tried to avoid the pregnancy to begin with. Like you said with the finances, There really isn't a perfect solution.

BitYakin -> RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill (9/11/2013 12:49:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: naughtynick81 DesideriScuri Just because the fetus is in her body, it doesn't cancel out the fact that she is ending the life of another being. Murder is murder. No matter if she does it or he does it, it is still ending the life of another being which results to the same outcome, murder or whatever you want to call it. Not until that fetus reaches personhood and is afforded all the rights afforded to humans. That's the key part there. The reason some Republicans try to pass personhood bills making personhood start at conception is because once that fetus gains personhood, ending it's life is murder. That is an extremely important legal matter. you are undermining your own case here desi, if you are claiming its NOT A PERSON, then NO MURDER BY ANYONE can be possible see thats the DOUBLE STANDARD he is talking about, when its a WOMAN its NOT a person, when its a MAN well suddenly it IS A PERSON who as been MURDERED ya can't have it BOTH WAYS! you just MADE HIS POINT

metamorfosis -> RE: Man pleads guilty to tricking pregnant girlfriend into taking abortion pill (9/11/2013 1:21:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Oneechan there's a clear logical failure here. if the man is guilty of murder, then all abortion must be murder. if abortion is not murder, then this man cannot be charged with murder. maybe harm to another person, misleading them into taking a drug, but not murder. you can't just make murder ok because a certain person is doing it, and punish another for it. In California, they get around this on a technicality, by defining murder as "the unlawful killing of a human being, or a fetus, with malice aforethought". Hence, even though a fetus is not defined as a human being, killing one falls under the definition of murder. Women and physicians performing elective abortions (during the legally permitted period) are exempted from this definition (as are other "lawful" killings such as executions and acts of war.) (With a nod to tazzy, who provided me with this information on another thread long ago.)

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