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Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shibari ... - 9/12/2013 8:18:47 AM   
MariaB


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http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/09/14/man-busted-for-killing-girlfriend-in-shibari-bdsm-3p/

Here is a full account of what happened along with a scientific analysis.

https://fetlife.com/users/30136/posts/1764601

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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 9/12/2013 8:24:20 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
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Status: offline 		"The trio had spent the night drinking and smoking hashish at a local club, and decided to retire to the basement garage of a building known to one of the girls for a BDSM session ."


There's the key folks.

Play sober kids

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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 9/12/2013 8:41:06 AM   
punisher440


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Status: offline 		Drugs and alcohol do not mix with safe play ever. This guy seems clueless in several ways besides doing Shibari in an altered state,he should never have tied himself to the 2 women and he should have had something to cut the ropes in case it went wrong[which it did]. A tragic outcome for all involved and everyone that practices Shibari or any form of serious restraining needs to never forget it can go horribly wrong if it is not done with safety in mind and a clear head.

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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 9/12/2013 12:53:28 PM   
MariaB


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Status: offline 		I think the entire thing is a disturbing read. The fact they were drunk, on substance and absent of a knife. The way the document is written and the finer details about the mental health of the dead woman isn't really necessary imo.

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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 9/12/2013 1:10:16 PM   
stef


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Status: offline 		Sometimes, stupidity is fatal. Don't be stupid.

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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 9/12/2013 1:16:17 PM   
Gauge


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Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline 		How many times do we stress safety, safety, safety? Safety requires preparation, thoughtfulness, attentiveness and anticipating any potential problems. Playing and mood and mind altering substances do not mix. A clear head will always react better than one in a fog of intoxicants.

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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 9/12/2013 1:26:12 PM   
MariaB


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Status: offline 		The problem with brain fog is, you tend to think your fine.

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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 9/12/2013 4:52:32 PM   
MizzSpitfire


Posts: 70
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Status: offline 		"she was murdered in an organised conspiracy by an evil deviant, whose self-serving account of events is being sympathetically lapped up by the media."
Pretty much.

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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 9/13/2013 4:01:40 AM   
MariaB


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Status: offline 		Actually she was a well known face on Fetlife and so was her injured friend and the guy

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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 9/13/2013 8:18:13 PM   
SilverBoat


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There's been some recent stir over at FL about this tragic incident, with several people attacking the paper's examination of the surviving woman's mental/psychological condition and history. Some of those have also been blaming or diverting the threads into harness-hang syndrome or chest compression asphyxia, and improper response to that as the cause of death.

Although the coroner did note some other ligature marks that may have resulted in chest compression, the primary cause of the death and coma was strangulation from rope around the neck. In general, harness-hang is associated with compression of the femoral vessels, which impedes or prevents vascular return from the legs. The secondary effects of resuming flow after an extended period can cause massive shock symptoms, but in this case, out and out cranial hypoxia was the primary cause of death and injury.

And notably absent in some of those posts, a few of which hedged towards blaming the victims for drink and drugs before playing with the rigger, was direct condemnation of the rigger's impairment, safety prep, etc. Most of the people were bluntly critical of the entire run-up and sloppy play, but those few otherwise seem to represent a troubling faction.

The guy rigging the rope while intoxicated is no different from a guy getting behind the wheel; impaired judgement led to that decision, and to the subsequent events. There's nothing exculpatory in that.


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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 9/13/2013 8:20:32 PM   
getoutnow


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Darwinism at work here.

That's all folks.

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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 9/13/2013 9:23:13 PM   
tsatske


Posts: 2037
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From: Louisville, KY
Status: offline 		There's so much wrong with this, starting with playing under the influence. After that, why would he choose a rigging with a rope around the neck, rigged so it could pull tighter? Why didn't he have a knife always at hand? Why did he rig himself to the girls leaving no one untied to supervise and intervene if necessary - and it was necessary. There's a lot of safety holes here that sometimes get shrugged off - in the end, play how you want to play, but endeavor to make it as safe as possible. I don't think this was as safe as possible.

I feel for the families of these relatively young people - not the way to find out your loved one is into kink.

He did however, pass what I call the 'Giles test', named after a former Master of mine. When he came too and found girls in distress, he called the rescue number and got help. One thing done right on a night of fuck-ups.

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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 9/14/2013 12:10:06 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverBoat


And notably absent in some of those posts, a few of which hedged towards blaming the victims for drink and drugs before playing with the rigger, was direct condemnation of the rigger's impairment, safety prep, etc. .

The guy rigging the rope while intoxicated is no different from a guy getting behind the wheel; impaired judgement led to that decision, and to the subsequent events. There's nothing exculpatory in that.



Absolutely agree with this.


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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 9/14/2013 7:44:54 AM   
Guilty1974


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From: Den Haag
Status: offline 		Thanks for posting the link here.

With regard to:

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
The way the document is written and the finer details about the mental health of the dead woman isn't really necessary imo.


I have decided to quote a lot from the article, because the article is relevant at multiple levels. There are the lessons we can take from it as riggers. Most of them are obvious. But the article does raise a good point to which extent we, as a scene, deal with mental disorders and their effect on play. At the same time, the analysis is pretty crappy. For instance, it is alleged that BPD could have been a factor in overestimating the riggers qualities, but that is not backed up by any direct evidence. Also, a pshychological evaluation of the rigger is entirely missing.

It is disturbing that this happened. It is also disturbing that such a weak analysis is accepted in a scientific journal. That, imho, is food for thought for scene activists. Therefore, I have decided to represent the article in its entirety. Originallly I also mentioned the case name, but considering the private nature I have edited the name out.


< Message edited by Guilty1974 -- 9/14/2013 7:52:26 AM >

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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 9/14/2013 7:51:22 AM   
DomLasVegas


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Status: offline 		Drunk and on drugs, inexperienced. Wrong combination.

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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 9/14/2013 7:56:17 AM   
Mylittledream


Posts: 5
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Status: offline 		I've read some time ago that the guy wasn't new to that... I knew he was known in the Rome scene... then, obviously, he decided to make a breath play, in which you need to be careful, while he had used drugs...

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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 9/14/2013 8:12:26 AM   
Guilty1974


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverBoat
There's been some recent stir over at FL about this tragic incident, with several people attacking the paper's examination of the surviving woman's mental/psychological condition and history. Some of those have also been blaming or diverting the threads into harness-hang syndrome or chest compression asphyxia, and improper response to that as the cause of death.


The role of chest asphyxia was not brought into play by people responding to my post, but by the authors of scientific article themselves. THEY suggest that chest compression may have been a factor that decided onde of them lives, while the other died. However, they do not provide direct evidence to support that idea.

As for Harness Hang Syndrome, part of my annoyance around that theme comes from the continuous misinformation that is spread. Unlike you say, HHS is not generally caused by femoral vessel constriction. It is caused by having the legs below the heart and completely motionless (two necessary conditions). This shuts down the vessels system of pumping blood upwards, resulting in fainting. This can easily happen, for instance, when you stand with your knees locked. An example of this can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNrcRukHndo in which there is clearly no constriction. As long as you return to a horizontal position quickly - which is usually quite automatic when you faint, this is no problem. When suspended in a harness, it is, as you say, a cause for venous pooling and psoosibly toxic reflow. As rope suspensions generally do not have the legs below the heart AND completely immobile, this is pretty much a non issue in rope bondage, and certainly not in this case.

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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 9/14/2013 8:28:31 AM   
Kana


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quote:

“While this game was being played, DE fainted (and lost urine), which resulted in SU remaining suspended and in both her and
SU being asphyxiated for an extended period of time. As the man involved in the game did not have a knife at hand, he was unable to cut the rope immediately. When he did manage to release the two women, DE was dead and SU was in critical condition.


The fucking guy passed out while tied to them and in slumping, strangled the victims.No safety equipment. No plan to cut them loose if needed in a pinch.
That qualifies for Darwin Award level idiocy in this cats book. Fuck, that's just damned stupid.

< Message edited by Kana -- 9/14/2013 8:31:03 AM >

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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 9/14/2013 8:31:26 AM   
Guilty1974


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From: Den Haag
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana
The fucking guy passed out while tied to them and in slumping, strangled the victims.


No, the other girl passed out. Strangling herself and the other girl. The rigger didn't pass out but was unable to act quickly and appropriately.

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RE: Woman dies and another is left in a coma after Shib... - 9/14/2013 8:53:25 AM   
Kana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Guilty1974


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana
The fucking guy passed out while tied to them and in slumping, strangled the victims.


No, the other girl passed out. Strangling herself and the other girl. The rigger didn't pass out but was unable to act quickly and appropriately.

The article begs to differ;

"In the garage, the man proceeded to tie the two (still clothed) women together using Japanese style “shibari” (also known as “kinbaku”) ties, and then tied himself to them.

At this point he apparently lost consciousness, falling over and pulling the ropes taut about the necks of the girls, causing the 24-year-old to asphyxiate in her bonds, and severely injuring the 23-year-old.

The man eventually cut her loose (authorities have noted he did not have a knife immediately to hand) and called for help, but she was by this time dead. The other woman was hospitalised and remains in a coma."

Note-Dear God, in rereading that, think how horrifying that was for the women.Strung together, helpless to move. No way to escape and the fucker drops cold and the gals slowly strangle, wide awake and coherent the whole time as they slowly start to die.
Holy fuck, that's a terrifying concept. Just an awful awful way to go.

(Though, gotta admit,it would be a wildly erotic scene to replay, just with a sober top and, well, like basic fucking safety precautions that even the most moronic dominant would have at hand. And no death. Yeah, nothing ruins a scene more than a trip to the morgue)

< Message edited by Kana -- 9/14/2013 8:59:32 AM >

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