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RE: American Ineffectualism - 9/14/2013 7:38:29 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So if the Syrians give up their chemical weapons without us even dropping one bomb or launching one missile how would the President be ineffectual


Because what should have been the American goal:
Advancing american interests, aka ending the syrian/iranian/russian/hezbolla linkage was traded for removing chemical weapons that had no significant impact in the war.

By which I mean, the rebels are losing and the assad no longer needs to employ chemical weapons. any military use would only further alienate assad and russia.

they are giving up a dubious asset in return for the us agreeing to the continued existence of the assad regime.

A bad trade.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: American Ineffectualism - 9/14/2013 8:19:45 PM   
cloudboy


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quote:

they are giving up a dubious asset in return for the us agreeing to the continued existence of the assad regime.


So your position is that the USA should attack Syria and help knock Assad out.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: American Ineffectualism - 9/14/2013 8:30:20 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		The subtitle for that article is:

Every American ally is cringing with embarrassment at the amateurishness of the last month.

I stopped reading right there. I prefer to detest Obama for what he's actually done. I try to avoid being influenced by blatant propaganda.

_____________________________

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officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: American Ineffectualism - 9/14/2013 8:38:09 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

You views really seem like a kid in a classroom who doesn't like his teacher.



Try a citizen, disgusted by the naive and incompetent "leadership" at the head of my government, Cloudboy.

"Schoolkid" cracks are at least part of the reason Putin is enjoying this so much.

As for demanding a perfect solution be offered, the crockery is broken, the milk is spilt, and we still have 3 years before we can really get the mop working on cleaning up the mess. Think there is any chance the President will never go off teleprompter again? That would help.



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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: American Ineffectualism - 9/14/2013 8:53:25 PM   
Phydeaux


Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

they are giving up a dubious asset in return for the us agreeing to the continued existence of the assad regime.


So your position is that the USA should attack Syria and help knock Assad out.


No. My position is that the US should support democratic rebels in cost effective and safe methods while encouraging the status quo - and allow the russians, the iranians, the arab league to funnel money into the area.

Right now Jihadists are going to paradise by fighting assad, and by extension a russian supported client - rather than US. Why in the world would we want to get in the way of that?

Attacks may, or may not be necessary. I do support the training of the FSA by Berets, etc. I do support light weapons, med kits, vehicles being provided. I do support intelligence sharing with the FSA.

Arm them and equip them and encourage them to more or less bide their time.

IF the president had the cojones to declare a no fly zone, I would support it.
IF the president had the cojones to drop a drone everytime Nasrullah opened his mouth- I'd support it.



< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 9/14/2013 8:55:40 PM >

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: American Ineffectualism - 9/15/2013 9:47:35 AM   
thompsonx


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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So if the Syrians give up their chemical weapons without us even dropping one bomb or launching one missile how would the President be ineffectual


Because what should have been the American goal:
Advancing american interests, aka ending the syrian/iranian/russian/hezbolla linkage was traded for removing chemical weapons that had no significant impact in the war.

By which I mean, the rebels are losing and the assad no longer needs to employ chemical weapons. any military use would only further alienate assad and russia.

they are giving up a dubious asset in return for the us agreeing to the continued existence of the assad regime.

A bad trade.

Tell us again where in the constitution it says we need to stick our nose into someone elses business to "end the syrian/iranian/russian/hezbolla linkage".Who the fuck are we to interfer in the affairs of soverign nations. If it is ok for us to do this is it, by reprosity, ok for them to incite rebellions in the u.s. and subvert our allies?

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: American Ineffectualism - 9/15/2013 9:49:18 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

You views really seem like a kid in a classroom who doesn't like his teacher.



Try a citizen, disgusted by the naive and incompetent "leadership" at the head of my government, Cloudboy.

"Schoolkid" cracks are at least part of the reason Putin is enjoying this so much.

As for demanding a perfect solution be offered, the crockery is broken, the milk is spilt, and we still have 3 years before we can really get the mop working on cleaning up the mess. Think there is any chance the President will never go off teleprompter again? That would help.



Teleprompterhow droll

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: American Ineffectualism - 9/15/2013 9:56:03 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

they are giving up a dubious asset in return for the us agreeing to the continued existence of the assad regime.


So your position is that the USA should attack Syria and help knock Assad out.


No. My position is that the US should support democratic rebels in cost effective and safe methods while encouraging the status quo - and allow the russians, the iranians, the arab league to funnel money into the area.

Right now Jihadists are going to paradise by fighting assad, and by extension a russian supported client - rather than US. Why in the world would we want to get in the way of that?

Attacks may, or may not be necessary. I do support the training of the FSA by Berets, etc. I do support light weapons, med kits, vehicles being provided. I do support intelligence sharing with the FSA.

Arm them and equip them and encourage them to more or less bide their time.

IF the president had the cojones to declare a no fly zone, I would support it.
IF the president had the cojones to drop a drone everytime Nasrullah opened his mouth- I'd support it.



I have noticed that chairborn rangers lack the cojones to spill there own blood but have no trouble seeking to spill that of others.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: American Ineffectualism - 9/15/2013 10:01:12 AM   
thompsonx


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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

You views really seem like a kid in a classroom who doesn't like his teacher.



Try a citizen, disgusted by the naive and incompetent "leadership" at the head of my government, Cloudboyquote]

That would be the unsubstantiated opinion of one individual, who is on record as to his feelings about the current president, not all the allies of the u.s. claimed in the propaganda piece.

quote:



As for demanding a perfect solution be offered, the crockery is broken, the milk is spilt, and we still have 3 years before we can really get the mop working on cleaning up the mess.



Mess...which mess is that???


(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: American Ineffectualism - 9/15/2013 10:03:07 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

No. My position is that the US should support democratic rebels in cost effective and safe methods


Which gang of thugs in syria are we speaking of here?

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: American Ineffectualism - 9/15/2013 10:06:01 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
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From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		I lost 10 pounds on that new President Erkel diet.
I just let Putin eat my lunch everyday.

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: American Ineffectualism - 9/15/2013 10:09:53 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I lost 10 pounds on that new President Erkel diet.
I just let Putin eat my lunch everyday.

Who knew putin liked pablum and kool aid?

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: American Ineffectualism - 9/15/2013 10:11:58 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Here's a good bit of analysis on the Syria debacle, and where it leaves us.


http://www.nationalreview.com/article/358480/american-ineffectualism-mark-steyn



If America is ineffectual at being exceptional, then perhaps "exceptionalism" was a bit of a put on to begin with.

In my opinion, the real problem here is that America's foreign policy has fossilized. This isn't World War II anymore, and the Cold War has also passed. It's a different world now, yet many of our policymakers still can't seem to figure out what to do with themselves. They apply outdated methods and tactics, and then scratch their heads wondering why it doesn't work anymore.

We need to set more realistic and practical goals for ourselves, things that we can be effective at. Even if we assume that our motives are as pure and noble as the politicians say they are, it still doesn't mean there aren't practical limits as to what we can do. "Superpower" shouldn't be taken so literally, as if we actually have "super powers" like Superman. Even if we were like Superman, then Putin would probably be our "Kryptonite."

It wasn't really all that much different during the Cold War. Our effectiveness only went as far as it didn't provoke the other major powers (namely Russia and China) into going to war with us. We kept each other in check that way, and it seems the same principle applies today. Balance of power.

As for Syria, we'll have to accept however it may be handled through international diplomatic channels. If we're supposedly the world's policeman, then even a policeman has to accept the rule of law. It wouldn't mean the police are ineffective, but they also have to function within the system they claim to protect.

Frankly, I would welcome more Russian involvement in the Middle East, as it would get us off the hook and put Russia in the hot seat over there. We might have to realign our interests a bit and cut our losses. We might have to very well consider losing the Middle East entirely and bolster our interests in other areas of the world which may have been neglected lately. The entire world does not begin and end in the Middle East - and they're not the only source of oil in the world either. We have to be realistic and practical, realizing that we can't control every grain of sand on the planet.

As for "American exceptionalism," at least from within America, I think there may be those who believe that all the world needs is more freedom and democracy and a general concept of "Americanism" that seems to be part of our political consciousness. I'm reminded of a line from Full Metal Jacket where some colonel says "Inside each one of these people is an American trying to come out." I think that many Americans believe that if we just apply "Americanism" to all these countries around the world, everything would be alright. Bring in the bowling alleys, tract housing, mini-malls, freeways, skyscrapers, all the modern conveniences - industry, democracy, freedom. Just make the whole world into America, and everything will be just fine. Baseball, hot dogs, apple pie - the whole works.

I'm being somewhat sarcastic here, but I think that a lot of Americans believe that we have such a wonderful thing here in this country and if only more people could see and partake of our system and all the opportunities there are, they'd all want to have it in their own countries and make the whole world a better place. That was the whole idea behind freedom, democracy, and human rights to begin with, so that people could be free to live as they choose, in order to live happier, more productive, and more fulfilling lives.

I don't think there's anything uniquely "American" about these ideals, as we borrowed most of it from other countries, so as far as terminology is concerned, "American exceptionalism" is about as accurate as "Holy Roman Empire."



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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: American Ineffectualism - 9/15/2013 10:12:25 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Thompson, you should really "drink more water", it's keeps the brain more pliable.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: American Ineffectualism - 9/15/2013 3:15:22 PM   
Phydeaux


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Joined: 1/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

No. My position is that the US should support democratic rebels in cost effective and safe methods


Which gang of thugs in syria are we speaking of here?


Perhaps you should go read up since you are so uninformed on the players.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: American Ineffectualism - 9/15/2013 4:49:12 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

No. My position is that the US should support democratic rebels in cost effective and safe methods


Which gang of thugs in syria are we speaking of here?


Perhaps you should go read up since you are so uninformed on the players.


I am not uninformed as to whom the thugs/players are. I am uninformed as to which are the democratic rebels the u.s. should support. Since you said your position was that the u.s. should support the democratic rebels ...yadda yadda yadda. I ask which are they and I get smart ass bullshit for a response. If you are unwilling or unable to answer the question say so.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: American Ineffectualism - 9/15/2013 4:52:47 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Thompson, you should really "drink more water", it's keeps the brain more pliable.

Is it common for inbread morons from carolina to quote inbread morons from arkansas?

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: American Ineffectualism - 9/15/2013 5:58:11 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks for answering the question. Maybe you could give the Heretic some coaching in that regard.

I don't know what the US should do, but my reading on the rebels raises concerns about what they would do if they came into power.

-----

My only rebuttal point to your answer is a sidebar: I don't think US policy makers in WASH DC have any "cojones" by deploying the US war machine. Under Bush, all those with "cojones" were chickenhawks, save for Colin Powell, who was pushed out and marginalized. In contrast to the chickenhawks under Bush, Obama is relying on Chuck Hagel who served in Vietnam and was wounded there.

Obama also feels burned by the military advisors who told him to up the troop numbers in Afghanistan -- a move that bore no fruit and didn't stabilize the country.

------

"Democratic rebels"

I might add that there is little evidence that Middle Eastern countries can effectively transition from warring, sectionally divided dictatorships to democracy. The idea of a democratic Syria is magical thinking.



< Message edited by cloudboy -- 9/15/2013 6:01:55 PM >

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 38
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