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RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/17/2013 9:12:30 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

I was in the service in the Reagan administration and military posts were considered "gun-free" zones.


Something about that just, just,,,


_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to MasterCaneman)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/17/2013 9:15:48 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

What's wrong with letting E-5s and up pack heat? They've earned the trust and respect already. What's wrong with letting O types pack? Aside from the fact most are terrible shots, it's better than cowering inside a broom closet.


But we're constantly told here in this forum that carrying guns adds to violence, not reduces it.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to MasterCaneman)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/17/2013 9:16:55 AM   
MasterCaneman


Posts: 3842
Joined: 3/21/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

I was in the service in the Reagan administration and military posts were considered "gun-free" zones.


Something about that just, just,,,


Hey, all I know is, when we hit the gates, we had to lock up our shootin' arns, usually for the duration. Unless some idiot wanted 'realism' and made us install BFAs and issue blanks. We were a friggin' arty unit, half the time we kept our rifles cased so they wouldn't get dusty on the range. Most of us also carried SNS's or derringers with shot loads against the rattlers downrange.

_____________________________

Age and treachery will always overcome youth and ambition.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. ~ Sun Tzu

Goddess Wrangler



(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/17/2013 9:17:13 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

I was in the service in the Reagan administration and military posts were considered "gun-free" zones. When we road-marched (fancy road for convoy of trucks), the chiefs would hand us a 20 rd magazine in case we were waylaid for our rifles. As soon as we hit the gates, mags went back and into the lockbox under his seat, and we had to lock up our weapons in the supply caravan. To this day it still makes no sense that our government shackles its warriors from protecting themselves on their own bases.

It is pretty simple really. On any given military base we have a whole shitpot full of teenage boys with access to firearms ammo and beer. The military in it's "infinite " wisdom thought this a poor combination.
I was in the military under kennedy,johnson,nixon and all of the military bases I was on, both in the conus and out ,all weapons were locked in the armory and had to be checked out to be used or cleaned. Those charged with "protecting" the base have weapons and ammo. Those not charged with this responsibility do not carry loaded weapons as part of their daily gig.

It was machts nichts to me, one less piece of shit I had to carry around. I was talking when we had to go off the reservation for training exercises. Things happen out there, even in the good ol' US of A.


Help me out here...when in the past 100 years has a u.s. military convoy been attacked in the u.s.?


quote:

But not everybody on a military posts qualifies as a "drunken teenage private" (of which I proudly was one). What's wrong with letting E-5s and up pack heat? They've earned the trust and respect already. What's wrong with letting O types pack? Aside from the fact most are terrible shots, it's better than cowering inside a broom closet.


For the same reason one does not have access to clasified data that they have no need to know even if they posses the proper clearance for that data. If one has no need of carrying a firearm on a military base it is not done.
Is the od armed?Yes.
Is the sgt of the guard armed?Yes.
Is the guard armed?Yes.
Is the dnco armed?Yes.



< Message edited by thompsonx -- 9/17/2013 9:18:17 AM >

(in reply to MasterCaneman)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/17/2013 9:31:15 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

I was in the service in the Reagan administration and military posts were considered "gun-free" zones.


Something about that just, just,,,


Hey, all I know is, when we hit the gates, we had to lock up our shootin' arns, usually for the duration. Unless some idiot wanted 'realism' and made us install BFAs and issue blanks. We were a friggin' arty unit, half the time we kept our rifles cased so they wouldn't get dusty on the range. Most of us also carried SNS's or derringers with shot loads against the rattlers downrange.



I fully realize that what I'm about to say will be taken by many as absolutely ridiculous. There is though, a similarity.

In Vietnam soldiers did not keep their weapons locked up. They knew there were those out there who's sole object was to harm / kill them. Some of the bad guys wore uniforms, some not. Some bad guys even actually lived amongst the soldiers, in various camps, etc.

So, what's so different here? It's quite evident there are those who desire to harm / kill people. Happens daily in Chicago. Yes, much is due to gang elements but that does not reduce the danger posed to Chicago's non-combatants. A military base as a gun free zone, as oxmoronic as that sounds, is an open invitation as much as an unarmed populace can be.

Imagine if our troops, when in a danger zone, had to keep their weapons locked up. Well, it's quite apparent that's exactly what happened. Just because an area is designated Gun Free does not render it so.







_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to MasterCaneman)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/17/2013 9:32:43 AM   
MasterCaneman


Posts: 3842
Joined: 3/21/2013
Status: offline 		Help me out here...when in the past 100 years has a u.s. military convoy been attacked in the u.s.?



Just to avoid a ton of nested quotes here.

To my recollection, never.

When I was a dumbfuck PFC, my section chief told us why we were issued a single mag on road marches. Sometime in the late 70's, a couple NG guys were held up and robbed of two M-16s and an M-60. They were on a training exercise and had no ammo. My chief didn't get into details, but they never found the weapons, and it became a quiet practice for Guard and Reserve units to keep a small amount of live in each truck in case that situation repeated itself. I'm sure ARCOM and the DOA would have had kittens, but what's done is done.



_____________________________

Age and treachery will always overcome youth and ambition.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. ~ Sun Tzu

Goddess Wrangler



(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/17/2013 9:36:31 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

According to one report, the guns were bought in Virginia....
A federal law enforcement official said Monday that Alexis, who had been staying at a nearby Residence Inn since late August or early September, legally purchased at least some of the weapons used in the assault within the past few days in Virginia.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/09/16/navy-yard-shooting/2819543/?csp=breakingnews
actually more than one report.
Gun free zone thanks to ...CLINTON???? really?? So you are ok with everyone being able to carry guns, ...or just mentally fit ones?? and how do you test that??? oh wait....there are an awful lot of people out there with anger issues... just see some of the posts here. while I like the idea, theres an awful lot more people who would have illegal guns, cos"I aint crazy, Im just human". We see it everyday on gun threads.
WHo would surrender their guns if they were found to be mentally unstable or have anger issues and refused a license or clearance? who would even turn up to be evaluated?????
LOL

'Political Correctness' Targeted By Conservatives As Security Flaw
NEW YORK -- Rep. Jason Chaffetz's (R-Utah) accusatory tweet is only one example of a meme now making its way through the conservative community: that somehow "political correctness" -- a refusal to judge employees, especially in the military -- is responsible for the Navy Yard shooting.
Jason Chaffetz ✔ @jasoninthehouse

Navy Yard- if security clearance stories are true it is infuriating. Government wide problem. Too PC. Lacks big pic perspective


How, with a criminal record did he get the guns legally?
How, with a criminal record did he get the clearances to have the job?
Something smells big time.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/17/2013 9:37:54 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


~ FR ~

So we have yet another mass killing of helpless people in a gun-free zone,

GUN FREE ZONE! When will stop making shit up!

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/17/2013 9:42:08 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		But we're constantly told here in this forum that carrying guns adds to violence, not reduces it.

I thnk I may have mentioned more than once that in cuba everyone is armed and they do not seem to have a firearm death rate that is out of porportion...so it would appear that the mear pressence of guns do not ipso facto create violence.

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/17/2013 9:45:41 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

According to one report, the guns were bought in Virginia....
A federal law enforcement official said Monday that Alexis, who had been staying at a nearby Residence Inn since late August or early September, legally purchased at least some of the weapons used in the assault within the past few days in Virginia.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/09/16/navy-yard-shooting/2819543/?csp=breakingnews
actually more than one report.
Gun free zone thanks to ...CLINTON???? really?? So you are ok with everyone being able to carry guns, ...or just mentally fit ones?? and how do you test that??? oh wait....there are an awful lot of people out there with anger issues... just see some of the posts here. while I like the idea, theres an awful lot more people who would have illegal guns, cos"I aint crazy, Im just human". We see it everyday on gun threads.
WHo would surrender their guns if they were found to be mentally unstable or have anger issues and refused a license or clearance? who would even turn up to be evaluated?????
LOL

'Political Correctness' Targeted By Conservatives As Security Flaw
NEW YORK -- Rep. Jason Chaffetz's (R-Utah) accusatory tweet is only one example of a meme now making its way through the conservative community: that somehow "political correctness" -- a refusal to judge employees, especially in the military -- is responsible for the Navy Yard shooting.
Jason Chaffetz ✔ @jasoninthehouse

Navy Yard- if security clearance stories are true it is infuriating. Government wide problem. Too PC. Lacks big pic perspective


How, with a criminal record did he get the guns legally?
How, with a criminal record did he get the clearances to have the job?
Something smells big time.


seems at least in one of them he was charged but it never went to court..
same with a lot of people....bad record keeping... amusing thats the only thing you focus on


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(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/17/2013 9:47:28 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

According to one report, the guns were bought in Virginia....
A federal law enforcement official said Monday that Alexis, who had been staying at a nearby Residence Inn since late August or early September, legally purchased at least some of the weapons used in the assault within the past few days in Virginia.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/09/16/navy-yard-shooting/2819543/?csp=breakingnews
actually more than one report.
Gun free zone thanks to ...CLINTON???? really?? So you are ok with everyone being able to carry guns, ...or just mentally fit ones?? and how do you test that??? oh wait....there are an awful lot of people out there with anger issues... just see some of the posts here. while I like the idea, theres an awful lot more people who would have illegal guns, cos"I aint crazy, Im just human". We see it everyday on gun threads.
WHo would surrender their guns if they were found to be mentally unstable or have anger issues and refused a license or clearance? who would even turn up to be evaluated?????
LOL

'Political Correctness' Targeted By Conservatives As Security Flaw
NEW YORK -- Rep. Jason Chaffetz's (R-Utah) accusatory tweet is only one example of a meme now making its way through the conservative community: that somehow "political correctness" -- a refusal to judge employees, especially in the military -- is responsible for the Navy Yard shooting.
Jason Chaffetz ✔ @jasoninthehouse

Navy Yard- if security clearance stories are true it is infuriating. Government wide problem. Too PC. Lacks big pic perspective


How, with a criminal record did he get the guns legally?
How, with a criminal record did he get the clearances to have the job?
Something smells big time.

Without a felony conviction he could have gotten both. From what I can find he had no convictions.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/17/2013 10:00:43 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Considering what the navy has said about his service record, how did he get an honorable discharge?

As for his criminal record, he had no felony convictions which means he was a fine upstanding citizen.

I still want to know how he passed two security checkpoints with the weapons. I mean granted 90% of the navy plays with and on boats so they really dont have much to worry about except some other asshole with a plane, boat or missile but if they cant keep one nut job out of one of their bases with guns, put the marines in charge of security.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/17/2013 10:02:56 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		FR

I read that the shootist was hearing voices. That does indicate schizophrenia. The alternative that a device was implanted into his skull, I deem extremely unlikely.

So this in effect was suicide by cop.

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/17/2013 10:07:17 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline 		FR

In the 30 years through March, 78 public mass shootings occurred in the U.S. -- incidents in which four or more people were killed at random by a gunman killing indiscriminately, according to a report issued that month by the Congressional Research Service. These crimes don’t include gang-related killings or domestic disputes where a person slays relatives or other people linked to the assailant.

The mass slaughters listed in the report caused the deaths of 547 people. Over the same three decades through 2012, that’s less than a tenth of 1 percent of the 559,347 people the Federal Bureau of Investigation estimates were murdered in America.

“It is a very, very small percentage,” said James Alan Fox, who teaches criminology at Boston’s Northeastern University and co-authored a book about mass shootings called “Extreme Killing,” published in 2011.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/17/2013 10:41:20 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Considering what the navy has said about his service record, how did he get an honorable discharge?

As for his criminal record, he had no felony convictions which means he was a fine upstanding citizen.

I still want to know how he passed two security checkpoints with the weapons. I mean granted 90% of the navy plays with and on boats so they really dont have much to worry about except some other asshole with a plane, boat or missile but if they cant keep one nut job out of one of their bases with guns, put the marines in charge of security.

I'm told the base is now an open facility so he could get on it just be showing ID. He apparently parked across the street from NAVSEA and simply walked in and shot the guard(s) at the entrance which is where he got the handgun and rifle.

Being a screwup, which is what the details of his record seems to imply, is not going to get you a general or lower unless you really piss someone off. More than likely he was told he could not reenlist and his 4 year enlistment just ran out.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/17/2013 10:51:37 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

According to one report, the guns were bought in Virginia....
A federal law enforcement official said Monday that Alexis, who had been staying at a nearby Residence Inn since late August or early September, legally purchased at least some of the weapons used in the assault within the past few days in Virginia.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/09/16/navy-yard-shooting/2819543/?csp=breakingnews
actually more than one report.
Gun free zone thanks to ...CLINTON???? really?? So you are ok with everyone being able to carry guns, ...or just mentally fit ones?? and how do you test that??? oh wait....there are an awful lot of people out there with anger issues... just see some of the posts here. while I like the idea, theres an awful lot more people who would have illegal guns, cos"I aint crazy, Im just human". We see it everyday on gun threads.
WHo would surrender their guns if they were found to be mentally unstable or have anger issues and refused a license or clearance? who would even turn up to be evaluated?????
LOL

'Political Correctness' Targeted By Conservatives As Security Flaw
NEW YORK -- Rep. Jason Chaffetz's (R-Utah) accusatory tweet is only one example of a meme now making its way through the conservative community: that somehow "political correctness" -- a refusal to judge employees, especially in the military -- is responsible for the Navy Yard shooting.
Jason Chaffetz ✔ @jasoninthehouse

Navy Yard- if security clearance stories are true it is infuriating. Government wide problem. Too PC. Lacks big pic perspective


How, with a criminal record did he get the guns legally?
How, with a criminal record did he get the clearances to have the job?
Something smells big time.


seems at least in one of them he was charged but it never went to court..
same with a lot of people....bad record keeping... amusing thats the only thing you focus on


If he got the gun legally then the background system didn't work as it is supposed to.
Clearly the clearance system didn't work.
If either had worked this wouldn't have happened.
That is why I focused on this.
That and Nosathro's silly but predictable claim that there were no background check.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/17/2013 10:54:37 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

According to one report, the guns were bought in Virginia....
A federal law enforcement official said Monday that Alexis, who had been staying at a nearby Residence Inn since late August or early September, legally purchased at least some of the weapons used in the assault within the past few days in Virginia.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/09/16/navy-yard-shooting/2819543/?csp=breakingnews
actually more than one report.
Gun free zone thanks to ...CLINTON???? really?? So you are ok with everyone being able to carry guns, ...or just mentally fit ones?? and how do you test that??? oh wait....there are an awful lot of people out there with anger issues... just see some of the posts here. while I like the idea, theres an awful lot more people who would have illegal guns, cos"I aint crazy, Im just human". We see it everyday on gun threads.
WHo would surrender their guns if they were found to be mentally unstable or have anger issues and refused a license or clearance? who would even turn up to be evaluated?????
LOL

'Political Correctness' Targeted By Conservatives As Security Flaw
NEW YORK -- Rep. Jason Chaffetz's (R-Utah) accusatory tweet is only one example of a meme now making its way through the conservative community: that somehow "political correctness" -- a refusal to judge employees, especially in the military -- is responsible for the Navy Yard shooting.
Jason Chaffetz ✔ @jasoninthehouse

Navy Yard- if security clearance stories are true it is infuriating. Government wide problem. Too PC. Lacks big pic perspective


How, with a criminal record did he get the guns legally?
How, with a criminal record did he get the clearances to have the job?
Something smells big time.

Without a felony conviction he could have gotten both. From what I can find he had no convictions.

Are you kidding I once had my clearances pulled for getting marriage counseling.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/17/2013 10:58:21 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

FR

I read that the shootist was hearing voices. That does indicate schizophrenia. The alternative that a device was implanted into his skull, I deem extremely unlikely.

So this in effect was suicide by cop.

His seeing the shrink should have cost him any clearances he had.
They had an officer on base explaining the procedure sure sounded like a closed situation.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/17/2013 11:00:22 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

And they wouldn't have to have their weapons with them at all times. How hard is it to decentralize storage and have them near their work stations? Put a gunsafe in the CO's or chief NCO's office and you maintain control.


The incident happened I believe at the commissary so it would not be near a company headquarters. So someone would have go back to the office and such.

(in reply to MasterCaneman)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: US Navy Shootings. - 9/17/2013 11:05:08 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Are you kidding I once had my clearances pulled for getting marriage counseling.


Demonstration of insanity right there.

LOL!

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 60
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